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Lean Software and Lean Startup are two different things. I have experienced lean software first hand and I can tell you it is no fad. I have set up Kanban in co

Lean Software and Lean Startup are two different things. I have experienced lean software first hand and I can tell you it is no fad. I have set up Kanban in companies a couple of times and the results were excellent, even better than Scrum. And when you say "it never really took off", please show your facts. Kanban has been around for a couple of years really, and I don't see it decreasing in interest. It would be good if people who talk about fads and buzzwords actually knew what they are talking about before criticizing. Just saying...

plinkplonk 15y ago
"Kanban has been around for a couple of years really, and I don't see it decreasing in interest." this doesn't show it "taking off" which would mean an increasing rate of adoption with something like a "hockeystick" curve. "lean software" got a few early adopters who tried visualising software production as an asembly line analogue, (with all the accompanying "kanban", "muda" etc bullshit, without ever having worked on or designed an assembly line. fwiw I am an Industrial Engineer, though I work in sw these days and I daresay I have seen more real world assembly lines than most lean software evangelists have) but it never became anything like mainstream. In contrast, Scrum , though borderline scammy with people sitting through 2 day courses becoming "scrum masters" became widely adopted. What Scrum, however scammy, has is "take off". What "lean software" has is an early fizzle. Lean manufacturing may have been a revolution, but the jury is very much out on whether lean software has any real impact. "it would be good if people who talk about fads and buzzwords actually knew what they are talking about before criticizing. Just saying" must be lonely, up on that cliff of superior wisdom and snap judgement, where you are the only one who knows about lean software,agile etc and anyone who has a contrary view to yours is a clueless moron ;)
- sarbogast 15y ago
  I didn't say anything like that. I never said you didn't know your thing about industrial engineering, but if you had practiced lean software, you would know that beyond the name and a few key concepts, it has been greatly adapted and cleverly tailored to take into account the reality of software engineering constraints. All I'm saying is that I have seen it work on several SOFTWARE projects, now have you even tried it for real? (sincerely and humbly asking...)
  - plinkplonk 15y ago
    "but if you had practiced lean software," and "have you even tried it for real?" sure. I have (and your assumption otherwise, as evidenced in your "if only people knew what they were talking about" opinion is revealing). Here is a war story fwiw I didn't decide the methodology on this project, I was just part of the team - (the only "methodology" I believe in for sw dev is "hire bright people and let them figure it out") On this particular project,there was a "lean and agile coach" (who had a PHB backing his efforts) who had a card wall where he monitored the "work in progress" and "queue size" and so on. It was obvious he had zero manufacturing experience, had never seen a real assembly line (or work cell or kanban card) and had just read this stuff up in the 'lean software' books (the authors of whom, in common with the agile gurus have zero credibility as devs or product designers) . As expected, the project ran into trouble, the devs revolted at being treated like assembly line workers, the "coach" eventually got fired (along with the middle manager who mandated the change) and the team went back to their previous "we figure what makes sense to us and fits our environment " 'methodology' and software delivery improved, the clients were happy and all was well again. The lean terminology is a source of team jokes now -eg: "I just visited the bathroom to get rid of some muda", "Anyone monitoring he WIP for a coffee?" And oh yes I expect to hear the "No True Scotsman" defense. "That wasn't real lean software. Hire me and I'll tell you how to do it 'right' ". Right. The more important point is, without experience in both manufacturing and software dev, it is terribly easy to get carried away by stories about Toyota's success in car making (and the 'lean software' authors and consultants are careful to sprinkle Toyota anecdotes throughout their books and slides - none of them have worked at Toyota afaik) and adopt random elements of their assembly line processes, (or to be more precise, what you THINK is happening in a Toyota factory) into your sw dev. "cleverly tailored" my ass. "Cleverly marketed" is more accurate. Any successful "tailoring" would need the tailor to be an accomplished expert in both sw dev and lean manufacturing and be at the top of their game in both fields - a combination of Linus Torvalds and Taichi Ohno. I am not sure such people even exist. What we have are consultants with mediocre dev skills and zero manufacturing experience who scramble from RUP to agile to lean software to whatever-fad-is-next and are always looking for the next fad to ride, the next book to write, and the next conference to speak at.
    - 15y ago
- sarbogast 15y ago
  oh, and it must be even more lonely, down in that rabbit hole where everything is scammy, consultantware, bullshit and anecdotic in comparison with your huge experience of everything. I just wish you could enlighten us with better alternatives and constructive criticism instead of just bashing everything for the sake of it.

plinkplonk 15y ago

"Kanban has been around for a couple of years really, and I don't see it decreasing in interest." this doesn't show it "taking off" which would mean an increasing rate of adoption with something like a "hockeystick" curve. "lean software" got a few early adopters who tried visualising software production as an asembly line analogue, (with all the accompanying "kanban", "muda" etc bullshit, without ever having worked on or designed an assembly line. fwiw I am an Industrial Engineer, though I work in sw these days and I daresay I have seen more real world assembly lines than most lean software evangelists have) but it never became anything like mainstream. In contrast, Scrum , though borderline scammy with people sitting through 2 day courses becoming "scrum masters" became widely adopted. What Scrum, however scammy, has is "take off". What "lean software" has is an early fizzle. Lean manufacturing may have been a revolution, but the jury is very much out on whether lean software has any real impact. "it would be good if people who talk about fads and buzzwords actually knew what they are talking about before criticizing. Just saying" must be lonely, up on that cliff of superior wisdom and snap judgement, where you are the only one who knows about lean software,agile etc and anyone who has a contrary view to yours is a clueless moron ;)

sarbogast 15y ago
I didn't say anything like that. I never said you didn't know your thing about industrial engineering, but if you had practiced lean software, you would know that beyond the name and a few key concepts, it has been greatly adapted and cleverly tailored to take into account the reality of software engineering constraints. All I'm saying is that I have seen it work on several SOFTWARE projects, now have you even tried it for real? (sincerely and humbly asking...)
- plinkplonk 15y ago
  "but if you had practiced lean software," and "have you even tried it for real?" sure. I have (and your assumption otherwise, as evidenced in your "if only people knew what they were talking about" opinion is revealing). Here is a war story fwiw I didn't decide the methodology on this project, I was just part of the team - (the only "methodology" I believe in for sw dev is "hire bright people and let them figure it out") On this particular project,there was a "lean and agile coach" (who had a PHB backing his efforts) who had a card wall where he monitored the "work in progress" and "queue size" and so on. It was obvious he had zero manufacturing experience, had never seen a real assembly line (or work cell or kanban card) and had just read this stuff up in the 'lean software' books (the authors of whom, in common with the agile gurus have zero credibility as devs or product designers) . As expected, the project ran into trouble, the devs revolted at being treated like assembly line workers, the "coach" eventually got fired (along with the middle manager who mandated the change) and the team went back to their previous "we figure what makes sense to us and fits our environment " 'methodology' and software delivery improved, the clients were happy and all was well again. The lean terminology is a source of team jokes now -eg: "I just visited the bathroom to get rid of some muda", "Anyone monitoring he WIP for a coffee?" And oh yes I expect to hear the "No True Scotsman" defense. "That wasn't real lean software. Hire me and I'll tell you how to do it 'right' ". Right. The more important point is, without experience in both manufacturing and software dev, it is terribly easy to get carried away by stories about Toyota's success in car making (and the 'lean software' authors and consultants are careful to sprinkle Toyota anecdotes throughout their books and slides - none of them have worked at Toyota afaik) and adopt random elements of their assembly line processes, (or to be more precise, what you THINK is happening in a Toyota factory) into your sw dev. "cleverly tailored" my ass. "Cleverly marketed" is more accurate. Any successful "tailoring" would need the tailor to be an accomplished expert in both sw dev and lean manufacturing and be at the top of their game in both fields - a combination of Linus Torvalds and Taichi Ohno. I am not sure such people even exist. What we have are consultants with mediocre dev skills and zero manufacturing experience who scramble from RUP to agile to lean software to whatever-fad-is-next and are always looking for the next fad to ride, the next book to write, and the next conference to speak at.
  - 15y ago
sarbogast 15y ago
oh, and it must be even more lonely, down in that rabbit hole where everything is scammy, consultantware, bullshit and anecdotic in comparison with your huge experience of everything. I just wish you could enlighten us with better alternatives and constructive criticism instead of just bashing everything for the sake of it.