7 ms·

Ask HN: Why are people proud of their genes even though they didn’t pick them?

16 points by amichail 5y ago

Any insights on this?

kazinator 5y ago
Pride isn't restricted to just one's own accomplishments. Furthermore, no accomplishments can be entirely separated from genes. Your achievements wouldn't have been possible if you had the genes of a bacterium rather than human genes. Accomplishments also tend to depended on a mixture of luck and a good starting environment (like not being born into poverty). Pride is the opposite of humility; and of the two it is humility that is more reasoned.
giantg2 5y ago
Because receiving the genes is only half the equation. The other half is passing them on. Having "good" genes makes it more likely to be considered an attractive mate to a larger percentage of potential mates. And just being seen as an attractive mate can positively effect one's status as well as the implicit biases of others.
sinyug 5y ago
One of the funniest debates on this subject is in the Pilot episode of House MD when House tells Cameron that he hired her because she was extremely pretty.[1] Cameron: Why did you hire me? House: Does it matter? Cameron: Kinda hard to work for a guy who doesn’t respect you. House: Why? Cameron: Is that rhetorical? House: No, it just seems that way because you can’t think of an answer. Does it make a difference why I think I’m a jerk? The only thing that matters is what you think. Can you do the job? Cameron: You hired a black guy because he had a juvenile record. House: No, it wasn’t a racial thing, I didn’t see a black guy. I just saw a doctor…with a juvenile record. I hired Chase ‘cause his dad made a phone call. I hired you because you are extremely pretty. Cameron: You hired me to get into my pants?! House: I can’t believe that that would shock you. It’s also not what I said. No, I hired you because you look good; it’s like having a nice piece of art in the lobby. Cameron: I was in the top of my class. House: But not THE top. Cameron: I did an internship at the Mayo Clinic. House: Yes, you were a very good applicant. Cameron: But not the best? House: Would that upset you, really, to think that you were hired because of some genetic gift of beauty not some genetic gift of intelligence? Cameron: I worked very hard to get where I am. House: But you didn’t have to. People choose the paths that gain them the greatest rewards for the least amount of effort. That’s a law of nature, and you defied it. That’s why I hired you. You could have married rich, could have been a model, you could have just shown up and people would have given you stuff. Lots of stuff, but you didn’t, you worked your stunning little ass off. Cameron: Am I supposed to be flattered? [1] https://clinic-duty.livejournal.com/385.html https://clinic-duty.livejournal.com/385.html
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  I love that scene. Thank you for quoting it.
secretsatan 5y ago
I always thought it was a bit of a coded insult to say someone has `good genes`, as in, they don't have any other redeeming qualities
smt88 5y ago
Most people can't separate their sense of self from their genetic traits. If you're smart or tall, for example, that's deeply tied to how people perceive you and your identity. In some cases, like intelligence, it's easier to justify the pride by saying you worked hard to get it -- even if it's more a function of genes, upbringing, etc. In other cases, people are happy to have a good quality, and perhaps the unearned "pride" is a flaw that we are all susceptible to.
PaulHoule 5y ago
For the phenotype? (e.g. "I am proud because I am attractive?")
- 999900000999 5y ago
  I've found my attractiveness is largely determined by my weight. When I was over 300 pounds I had no luck finding a partner. At 240 pounds girls chat me up at bars, set me up with their friends, etc. I'm also not longer diabetic ! I still have some health issues I'd like to resolve so I'm trying to get down to 220.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    A substantial portion of those 240 pounds must surely be muscles?
    - dpark 5y ago
      A substantial portion is almost certainly bone mass, from quite tall bones.
    - 999900000999 5y ago
      Lol, not on my body. I have at least another 20 pounds to lose. I was on a path to just get fatter and fatter, pumping myself full of insulin and various other drugs. Vs limiting how many carbs I consume. Respecting how dangerous soda is, particularly in the massive corn syrup quantities Americas consume, has done wonders for my health. Hell, I'd argue excessive soda consumption is worse than smoking.
      - dpark 5y ago
        How tall are you? At 240 you either have a lot off muscle, are very tall, or have a lot more than 20lb left to lose. A person would have to be about 6’8” to have a “healthy” BMI at 220.
        5y ago
pier25 5y ago
Same reason people are proud of their country, culture, language, religion, etc. Because humans generally need some sense of belonging. It's in our biological firmware because groups tend to survive longer than individuals.
- nirav72 5y ago
  >because groups tend to survive longer than individuals. which is kind of at odds with or opposite to the emphasis placed on western individualism.
  - pier25 5y ago
    "western individualism" is also a shared cultural value
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Not just a sense of belonging. (Yes, people need that.) But people also seem to need a sense of being better than others. And they'll pick whatever axis makes them better than others, and be proud of that axis. Good genes, or athleticism, or famous ancestors, knowing someone famous, or high income, or good looks, or whatever. People will even be proud of being down-to-earth!
  - dpark 5y ago
    People feel the need to be “special”. Even people who don’t think they are better than others have some way of identifying themselves as being special, even if that’s just feeling especially unlucky or downtrodden. “My suffering is unique” is not really different in its search for uniqueness than “my gifts are unique”. Even people who are aware that specialness is mostly an illusion seem to feel proud of that awareness, because it makes them special. All of this is to say that you are correct.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
csdvrx 5y ago
I'm equally puzzled by how people can feel proud of something they did not achieve personally (ex: the history of their country, the result of their favorite sport team) or food items that are "traditional" while better alternatives exist (ex: I had french friends talking at length about how overroasted/burnt french expresso cafe creme is better than a flat white, or how seedless grapes can't be as good) or even having some health issue (some guys told me they are proud to be bald. ok??) People seem to derive utility from membership in a social group, or conforming to this group prescriptions ("thou shalt not like Australian coffee???") so I believe this is just an extension at the gene level.
- dpark 5y ago
  > even having some health issue (some guys told me they are proud to be bald. ok??) Baldness is not a health issue. > I'm equally puzzled by how people can feel proud of something they did not achieve personally It would probably be illustrative for you to make a list of your accomplishments that you are proud of and then ask yourself how much is actually due to your efforts. Like many here, I’m a successful software engineer. I’m proud of this but realistically this is primarily down to luck. Lucky to be reasonably intelligent. Lucky to be born into a family with enough money that I could pursue education. Lucky to have been raised to have a decent work ethic. Lucky to be born into this time period. Lucky to be born reasonably healthy. Lucky to be human. Compared to all the luck, my actual hard work is almost inconsequential.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    > I’m proud of this but realistically this is primarily down to luck. I don't buy this trend of looking at everything through the myopic lens of privilege. Lots of people have had the same luck as you and I, yet have achieved nothing > Compared to all the luck, my actual hard work is almost inconsequential. There are necessary and sufficient conditions. As the saying does, "Luck favors the prepared mind." Some of the "lucks" you have listed are necessary conditions ("Lucky to be born reasonably healthy. Lucky to be human." If you're born a dolphin or with a disease that kills you before you turn 15, you won't get to be a "successful software engineer) Some are neither necessary not sufficient (money to pursue education + work ethic: I know very lazy yet very successful coders that don't have a single diploma in their name) > Compared to all the luck, my actual hard work is almost inconsequential. And yet, it's the one you have control with (you can decide to work more or less or not at all). By extension, I can't understand taking pride in something totally outside of your control ("I'm proud to be human!") or non sensical ("I'm proud to be lucky!")
aristofun 5y ago
Why not? It’s all just a wordplay anyway. Phrase “im proud of <something>” means nothing. It how people act that matters. And there is no direct link between being proud and acting in a certain manner… so who cares :)
- lolsal 5y ago
  > Phrase “im proud of <something>” means nothing. ... yes it does. I'm proud of losing 5lbs and accomplishing a goal I set for myself. The feelings I have when I utter that statements are real, whether I act differently (beyond uttering it) to anyone about it or not.
- dpark 5y ago
  > And there is no direct link between being proud and acting in a certain manner… I’m pretty sure that’s entirely untrue. Pride and shame are opposite sides of the same very powerful motivating force.
  - aristofun 5y ago
    > Pride and shame are opposite sides of the same very powerful motivating force. Right. But there are no rules about what exactly it motivates you to. Same pride can motivate someone to kill, others — to do charity.
    - dpark 5y ago
      Oh. You’re using pride as a generic term and treating all pride as equivalent. This is a meaningless way to look at the idea of pride. Pride is directed. A person doesn’t just feel pride, they feel pride about something. Analyzing anger the way you have pride would yield the same idea, that anger is nearly meaningless, or at least lacking in any predictive value. Without discussing where the emotion is directed, yeah, it can’t tell us much about what the action the emotion encourages. Once you start discussion the object of someone’s pride, the actions become more obvious. Proud of your kid? You’re a lot more likely to reward them. Proud of your job? You’re more likely to talk about it. Proud of your country? You’re probably more likely to demand policies that you see as elevating your country above others.
paxys 5y ago
Because other people judge you based on your genes. If you've lived your entire life with people complimenting you on your looks, height, eyes, complexion and rewarding you for them, it's hard not to feel like you've accomplished something.
engineer_22 5y ago
Why not?
lolsal 5y ago
If you have "good" genes, presumably you had two parents both with desirable genes. I would imagine the pride comes from being proud of your parents each finding a procreation partner that had "good" genes. Random chance and mutations are completely ignored of course.
rootsudo 5y ago
There's nothing bad to be proud of your genes and your ancestry. You are the end result of all combined evolution and the culture, norms and survival tactics. People are proud because it is who they are, the media, peers, society in general can twist and turn but in the end, you didn't pick them but your genes became you and are you.
qnsi 5y ago
read the book Elephant in the brain by Robin Hanson. The main thesis of the book is that we are very often not aware of our real reasons for most of our behaviors. Our behaviors are optimised for living in a social group and very often, from the point of view of natural selection, it is useful if we are not consciously aware of our real motivations. The book is split into two sections. The first, entitled 'Why We Hide Our Motives' includes an introduction to the subjects of animal behaviour, signalling, social norms and self-deception. In the second section, title 'Hidden Motives in Everyday Life' each chapter covers an aspect of human behaviour and describes how it can be explained through the framework of signalling and self-deception outlined in the first section. The chapters in this section cover body language, laughter, conversation, consumption, art, charity, education, medicine, religion and politics. 99% of what people do or say is bullshit it's all competition
newbamboo 5y ago
“Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” Why is being proud of anything now acceptable in our society? That’s the better question. Pride will find reasons to justify itself, if you allow it. People are proud of all kinds of outlandish things.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
giardini 5y ago
Because they're still alive despite having those genes?

16 points by amichail 5y ago

Any insights on this?

Pride isn't restricted to just one's own accomplishments. Furthermore, no accomplishments can be entirely separated from genes. Your achievements wouldn't have been possible if you had the genes of a bacterium rather than human genes. Accomplishments also tend to depended on a mixture of luck and a good starting environment (like not being born into poverty). Pride is the opposite of humility; and of the two it is humility that is more reasoned.

giantg2 5y ago

Because receiving the genes is only half the equation. The other half is passing them on. Having "good" genes makes it more likely to be considered an attractive mate to a larger percentage of potential mates. And just being seen as an attractive mate can positively effect one's status as well as the implicit biases of others.

sinyug 5y ago

One of the funniest debates on this subject is in the Pilot episode of House MD when House tells Cameron that he hired her because she was extremely pretty.[1] Cameron: Why did you hire me? House: Does it matter? Cameron: Kinda hard to work for a guy who doesn’t respect you. House: Why? Cameron: Is that rhetorical? House: No, it just seems that way because you can’t think of an answer. Does it make a difference why I think I’m a jerk? The only thing that matters is what you think. Can you do the job? Cameron: You hired a black guy because he had a juvenile record. House: No, it wasn’t a racial thing, I didn’t see a black guy. I just saw a doctor…with a juvenile record. I hired Chase ‘cause his dad made a phone call. I hired you because you are extremely pretty. Cameron: You hired me to get into my pants?! House: I can’t believe that that would shock you. It’s also not what I said. No, I hired you because you look good; it’s like having a nice piece of art in the lobby. Cameron: I was in the top of my class. House: But not THE top. Cameron: I did an internship at the Mayo Clinic. House: Yes, you were a very good applicant. Cameron: But not the best? House: Would that upset you, really, to think that you were hired because of some genetic gift of beauty not some genetic gift of intelligence? Cameron: I worked very hard to get where I am. House: But you didn’t have to. People choose the paths that gain them the greatest rewards for the least amount of effort. That’s a law of nature, and you defied it. That’s why I hired you. You could have married rich, could have been a model, you could have just shown up and people would have given you stuff. Lots of stuff, but you didn’t, you worked your stunning little ass off. Cameron: Am I supposed to be flattered? [1] https://clinic-duty.livejournal.com/385.html https://clinic-duty.livejournal.com/385.html

DoreenMichele 5y ago
I love that scene. Thank you for quoting it.

secretsatan 5y ago

I always thought it was a bit of a coded insult to say someone has `good genes`, as in, they don't have any other redeeming qualities

smt88 5y ago

Most people can't separate their sense of self from their genetic traits. If you're smart or tall, for example, that's deeply tied to how people perceive you and your identity. In some cases, like intelligence, it's easier to justify the pride by saying you worked hard to get it -- even if it's more a function of genes, upbringing, etc. In other cases, people are happy to have a good quality, and perhaps the unearned "pride" is a flaw that we are all susceptible to.

PaulHoule 5y ago

For the phenotype? (e.g. "I am proud because I am attractive?")

999900000999 5y ago
I've found my attractiveness is largely determined by my weight. When I was over 300 pounds I had no luck finding a partner. At 240 pounds girls chat me up at bars, set me up with their friends, etc. I'm also not longer diabetic ! I still have some health issues I'd like to resolve so I'm trying to get down to 220.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  A substantial portion of those 240 pounds must surely be muscles?
  - dpark 5y ago
    A substantial portion is almost certainly bone mass, from quite tall bones.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    Lol, not on my body. I have at least another 20 pounds to lose. I was on a path to just get fatter and fatter, pumping myself full of insulin and various other drugs. Vs limiting how many carbs I consume. Respecting how dangerous soda is, particularly in the massive corn syrup quantities Americas consume, has done wonders for my health. Hell, I'd argue excessive soda consumption is worse than smoking.
    - dpark 5y ago
      How tall are you? At 240 you either have a lot off muscle, are very tall, or have a lot more than 20lb left to lose. A person would have to be about 6’8” to have a “healthy” BMI at 220.
      - 5y ago

pier25 5y ago

Same reason people are proud of their country, culture, language, religion, etc. Because humans generally need some sense of belonging. It's in our biological firmware because groups tend to survive longer than individuals.

nirav72 5y ago
>because groups tend to survive longer than individuals. which is kind of at odds with or opposite to the emphasis placed on western individualism.
- pier25 5y ago
  "western individualism" is also a shared cultural value
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Not just a sense of belonging. (Yes, people need that.) But people also seem to need a sense of being better than others. And they'll pick whatever axis makes them better than others, and be proud of that axis. Good genes, or athleticism, or famous ancestors, knowing someone famous, or high income, or good looks, or whatever. People will even be proud of being down-to-earth!
- dpark 5y ago
  People feel the need to be “special”. Even people who don’t think they are better than others have some way of identifying themselves as being special, even if that’s just feeling especially unlucky or downtrodden. “My suffering is unique” is not really different in its search for uniqueness than “my gifts are unique”. Even people who are aware that specialness is mostly an illusion seem to feel proud of that awareness, because it makes them special. All of this is to say that you are correct.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

csdvrx 5y ago

I'm equally puzzled by how people can feel proud of something they did not achieve personally (ex: the history of their country, the result of their favorite sport team) or food items that are "traditional" while better alternatives exist (ex: I had french friends talking at length about how overroasted/burnt french expresso cafe creme is better than a flat white, or how seedless grapes can't be as good) or even having some health issue (some guys told me they are proud to be bald. ok??) People seem to derive utility from membership in a social group, or conforming to this group prescriptions ("thou shalt not like Australian coffee???") so I believe this is just an extension at the gene level.

dpark 5y ago
> even having some health issue (some guys told me they are proud to be bald. ok??) Baldness is not a health issue. > I'm equally puzzled by how people can feel proud of something they did not achieve personally It would probably be illustrative for you to make a list of your accomplishments that you are proud of and then ask yourself how much is actually due to your efforts. Like many here, I’m a successful software engineer. I’m proud of this but realistically this is primarily down to luck. Lucky to be reasonably intelligent. Lucky to be born into a family with enough money that I could pursue education. Lucky to have been raised to have a decent work ethic. Lucky to be born into this time period. Lucky to be born reasonably healthy. Lucky to be human. Compared to all the luck, my actual hard work is almost inconsequential.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  > I’m proud of this but realistically this is primarily down to luck. I don't buy this trend of looking at everything through the myopic lens of privilege. Lots of people have had the same luck as you and I, yet have achieved nothing > Compared to all the luck, my actual hard work is almost inconsequential. There are necessary and sufficient conditions. As the saying does, "Luck favors the prepared mind." Some of the "lucks" you have listed are necessary conditions ("Lucky to be born reasonably healthy. Lucky to be human." If you're born a dolphin or with a disease that kills you before you turn 15, you won't get to be a "successful software engineer) Some are neither necessary not sufficient (money to pursue education + work ethic: I know very lazy yet very successful coders that don't have a single diploma in their name) > Compared to all the luck, my actual hard work is almost inconsequential. And yet, it's the one you have control with (you can decide to work more or less or not at all). By extension, I can't understand taking pride in something totally outside of your control ("I'm proud to be human!") or non sensical ("I'm proud to be lucky!")

aristofun 5y ago

Why not? It’s all just a wordplay anyway. Phrase “im proud of <something>” means nothing. It how people act that matters. And there is no direct link between being proud and acting in a certain manner… so who cares :)

lolsal 5y ago
> Phrase “im proud of <something>” means nothing. ... yes it does. I'm proud of losing 5lbs and accomplishing a goal I set for myself. The feelings I have when I utter that statements are real, whether I act differently (beyond uttering it) to anyone about it or not.
dpark 5y ago
> And there is no direct link between being proud and acting in a certain manner… I’m pretty sure that’s entirely untrue. Pride and shame are opposite sides of the same very powerful motivating force.
- aristofun 5y ago
  > Pride and shame are opposite sides of the same very powerful motivating force. Right. But there are no rules about what exactly it motivates you to. Same pride can motivate someone to kill, others — to do charity.
  - dpark 5y ago
    Oh. You’re using pride as a generic term and treating all pride as equivalent. This is a meaningless way to look at the idea of pride. Pride is directed. A person doesn’t just feel pride, they feel pride about something. Analyzing anger the way you have pride would yield the same idea, that anger is nearly meaningless, or at least lacking in any predictive value. Without discussing where the emotion is directed, yeah, it can’t tell us much about what the action the emotion encourages. Once you start discussion the object of someone’s pride, the actions become more obvious. Proud of your kid? You’re a lot more likely to reward them. Proud of your job? You’re more likely to talk about it. Proud of your country? You’re probably more likely to demand policies that you see as elevating your country above others.

paxys 5y ago

Because other people judge you based on your genes. If you've lived your entire life with people complimenting you on your looks, height, eyes, complexion and rewarding you for them, it's hard not to feel like you've accomplished something.

engineer_22 5y ago

Why not?

lolsal 5y ago

If you have "good" genes, presumably you had two parents both with desirable genes. I would imagine the pride comes from being proud of your parents each finding a procreation partner that had "good" genes. Random chance and mutations are completely ignored of course.

rootsudo 5y ago

There's nothing bad to be proud of your genes and your ancestry. You are the end result of all combined evolution and the culture, norms and survival tactics. People are proud because it is who they are, the media, peers, society in general can twist and turn but in the end, you didn't pick them but your genes became you and are you.

qnsi 5y ago

read the book Elephant in the brain by Robin Hanson. The main thesis of the book is that we are very often not aware of our real reasons for most of our behaviors. Our behaviors are optimised for living in a social group and very often, from the point of view of natural selection, it is useful if we are not consciously aware of our real motivations. The book is split into two sections. The first, entitled 'Why We Hide Our Motives' includes an introduction to the subjects of animal behaviour, signalling, social norms and self-deception. In the second section, title 'Hidden Motives in Everyday Life' each chapter covers an aspect of human behaviour and describes how it can be explained through the framework of signalling and self-deception outlined in the first section. The chapters in this section cover body language, laughter, conversation, consumption, art, charity, education, medicine, religion and politics. 99% of what people do or say is bullshit it's all competition

newbamboo 5y ago

“Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” Why is being proud of anything now acceptable in our society? That’s the better question. Pride will find reasons to justify itself, if you allow it. People are proud of all kinds of outlandish things.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

giardini 5y ago

Because they're still alive despite having those genes?