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"He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in)." I haven't read Rie

"He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in)." I haven't read Ries's book but the "Lean Software" book by the Poppendiecks was full of over-stretched analogies and feel-good management book style anecdotes. There was a push to make "Lean Software" into an enterprise software fad to succeed "Agile", but it never really took off. I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" (lots of consultantware and repackaging of simple and old concepts and not enough "meat" for working devs/PMs). It does have that fad-of-the-day smell though. Lots of marketing and glibness and sizzle. How much steak? Time will tell. PS: I don't agree with the folks downvoting you. You have a valid point worth considering. If you could post a few lines on what you see as the specific differences between the two fields and the "snake oil" bits that you perceive that would be cool.

gruseom 15y ago
I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" Isn't it already? They seem very similar to me.
- sarbogast 15y ago
  In fact, Lean Startup includes agile methodologies for product development. Both work hand in hand. The last thing we miss to complete the perfect environment is Lean Investment. But in a sense, isn't it what YCombinator, 500startups and other accelerators are already doing? What I don't understand is why he hopes Startup doesn't become the new Agile. Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects. I would hope Lean Startup will decrease failure rates in the same proportions for startups.
  - plinkplonk 15y ago
    "Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects." (Reliable non vendorware) Citation needed. How have "agile methodologies" made "awesome transformations" any more than the previous methodology fad(RUP I believe)? Then, a lot of consultants ran around raving about uml diagrams etc and the rate of failure of projects didn't change. With the formulation of agile, a lot of consultants ran around raving about TDD and Scrum and so on. Do you have any non anecdotal evidence about this massive industry transformation and "great decrease of failure rates"? If so you should publish pronto because, afaik, no one has that kind of evidence to date. This kind of sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious statement is the problem with the cult of agile.
    - sarbogast 15y ago
      It's only "sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious" if you discard the facts that ARE there: http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figure1 http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figur... Scott Ambler has been running these surveys for a few years now, and they are consistent. In 2010, agile and iterative methodologies (that include RUP, which is rybbish I agree, but looking at the facts here) lead to +10% in success rate compared to ad-hoc or waterfall. But now you are going to tell me Scott Ambler is one of these agile consultants preaching for his own church, right?
      - plinkplonk 15y ago
        Heh, If you consider some surveys run by a methodology consultant to be the only "evidence" you have of the superiority of said methodology, then you just proved my point better than I ever could. Thank You! PS: You really should get a stats education, so you can properly judge (and see through) such shaky "evidence"
        sarbogast 15y ago
        Your total absence of humility and your absolute disrespect for field people like Ambler and Poppendieck are simply staggering. I wish you luck.
        gruseom 15y ago
        I'll pipe up for Plink. Yeah, he's caustic about this, but he has a lot of experience with Agile (including some of the prominent names) and what he's saying is based on observation. Also, he's more of a "field people" than the consultants you mention. I'm not defending rudeness, but his exasperation is something I understand. It's the exasperation of a good programmer with management bullshit.
      - akkartik 15y ago
        "It's only "sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious" if you discard the facts that ARE there." No need for that. All he asked for was a citation; nobody's 'discarding' anything.
sarbogast 15y ago
Lean Software and Lean Startup are two different things. I have experienced lean software first hand and I can tell you it is no fad. I have set up Kanban in companies a couple of times and the results were excellent, even better than Scrum. And when you say "it never really took off", please show your facts. Kanban has been around for a couple of years really, and I don't see it decreasing in interest. It would be good if people who talk about fads and buzzwords actually knew what they are talking about before criticizing. Just saying...
- plinkplonk 15y ago
  "Kanban has been around for a couple of years really, and I don't see it decreasing in interest." this doesn't show it "taking off" which would mean an increasing rate of adoption with something like a "hockeystick" curve. "lean software" got a few early adopters who tried visualising software production as an asembly line analogue, (with all the accompanying "kanban", "muda" etc bullshit, without ever having worked on or designed an assembly line. fwiw I am an Industrial Engineer, though I work in sw these days and I daresay I have seen more real world assembly lines than most lean software evangelists have) but it never became anything like mainstream. In contrast, Scrum , though borderline scammy with people sitting through 2 day courses becoming "scrum masters" became widely adopted. What Scrum, however scammy, has is "take off". What "lean software" has is an early fizzle. Lean manufacturing may have been a revolution, but the jury is very much out on whether lean software has any real impact. "it would be good if people who talk about fads and buzzwords actually knew what they are talking about before criticizing. Just saying" must be lonely, up on that cliff of superior wisdom and snap judgement, where you are the only one who knows about lean software,agile etc and anyone who has a contrary view to yours is a clueless moron ;)
  - sarbogast 15y ago
    I didn't say anything like that. I never said you didn't know your thing about industrial engineering, but if you had practiced lean software, you would know that beyond the name and a few key concepts, it has been greatly adapted and cleverly tailored to take into account the reality of software engineering constraints. All I'm saying is that I have seen it work on several SOFTWARE projects, now have you even tried it for real? (sincerely and humbly asking...)

gruseom 15y ago

I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" Isn't it already? They seem very similar to me.

sarbogast 15y ago
In fact, Lean Startup includes agile methodologies for product development. Both work hand in hand. The last thing we miss to complete the perfect environment is Lean Investment. But in a sense, isn't it what YCombinator, 500startups and other accelerators are already doing? What I don't understand is why he hopes Startup doesn't become the new Agile. Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects. I would hope Lean Startup will decrease failure rates in the same proportions for startups.
- plinkplonk 15y ago
  "Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects." (Reliable non vendorware) Citation needed. How have "agile methodologies" made "awesome transformations" any more than the previous methodology fad(RUP I believe)? Then, a lot of consultants ran around raving about uml diagrams etc and the rate of failure of projects didn't change. With the formulation of agile, a lot of consultants ran around raving about TDD and Scrum and so on. Do you have any non anecdotal evidence about this massive industry transformation and "great decrease of failure rates"? If so you should publish pronto because, afaik, no one has that kind of evidence to date. This kind of sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious statement is the problem with the cult of agile.
  - sarbogast 15y ago
    It's only "sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious" if you discard the facts that ARE there: http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figure1 http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figur... Scott Ambler has been running these surveys for a few years now, and they are consistent. In 2010, agile and iterative methodologies (that include RUP, which is rybbish I agree, but looking at the facts here) lead to +10% in success rate compared to ad-hoc or waterfall. But now you are going to tell me Scott Ambler is one of these agile consultants preaching for his own church, right?
    - plinkplonk 15y ago
      Heh, If you consider some surveys run by a methodology consultant to be the only "evidence" you have of the superiority of said methodology, then you just proved my point better than I ever could. Thank You! PS: You really should get a stats education, so you can properly judge (and see through) such shaky "evidence"
      - sarbogast 15y ago
        Your total absence of humility and your absolute disrespect for field people like Ambler and Poppendieck are simply staggering. I wish you luck.
        gruseom 15y ago
        I'll pipe up for Plink. Yeah, he's caustic about this, but he has a lot of experience with Agile (including some of the prominent names) and what he's saying is based on observation. Also, he's more of a "field people" than the consultants you mention. I'm not defending rudeness, but his exasperation is something I understand. It's the exasperation of a good programmer with management bullshit.
    - akkartik 15y ago
      "It's only "sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious" if you discard the facts that ARE there." No need for that. All he asked for was a citation; nobody's 'discarding' anything.

sarbogast 15y ago

Lean Software and Lean Startup are two different things. I have experienced lean software first hand and I can tell you it is no fad. I have set up Kanban in companies a couple of times and the results were excellent, even better than Scrum. And when you say "it never really took off", please show your facts. Kanban has been around for a couple of years really, and I don't see it decreasing in interest. It would be good if people who talk about fads and buzzwords actually knew what they are talking about before criticizing. Just saying...

plinkplonk 15y ago
"Kanban has been around for a couple of years really, and I don't see it decreasing in interest." this doesn't show it "taking off" which would mean an increasing rate of adoption with something like a "hockeystick" curve. "lean software" got a few early adopters who tried visualising software production as an asembly line analogue, (with all the accompanying "kanban", "muda" etc bullshit, without ever having worked on or designed an assembly line. fwiw I am an Industrial Engineer, though I work in sw these days and I daresay I have seen more real world assembly lines than most lean software evangelists have) but it never became anything like mainstream. In contrast, Scrum , though borderline scammy with people sitting through 2 day courses becoming "scrum masters" became widely adopted. What Scrum, however scammy, has is "take off". What "lean software" has is an early fizzle. Lean manufacturing may have been a revolution, but the jury is very much out on whether lean software has any real impact. "it would be good if people who talk about fads and buzzwords actually knew what they are talking about before criticizing. Just saying" must be lonely, up on that cliff of superior wisdom and snap judgement, where you are the only one who knows about lean software,agile etc and anyone who has a contrary view to yours is a clueless moron ;)
- sarbogast 15y ago
  I didn't say anything like that. I never said you didn't know your thing about industrial engineering, but if you had practiced lean software, you would know that beyond the name and a few key concepts, it has been greatly adapted and cleverly tailored to take into account the reality of software engineering constraints. All I'm saying is that I have seen it work on several SOFTWARE projects, now have you even tried it for real? (sincerely and humbly asking...)