4 ms·

Yes, but how does the improviser know which notes are concordant and which dissonant against the chords of the known song without theory? How do they know how t

Yes, but how does the improviser know which notes are concordant and which dissonant against the chords of the known song without theory? How do they know how to create tension and resolution within the harmonic/melodic progression? Improvisation doesn't mean "making up random stuff", it means knowing your instrument and the ways in which chords, melodies, harmonies interact, knowing changes and progressions, inside out so well that you naturally can use that knowledge to come up with something unique. If what you mean is "some musicians can implicitly understand this stuff without knowing the academic language", well yeah, music theory isn't prescriptive, it's a language used to communicate with other musicians. You can get away without knowing the terms, but knowing what it's describing is important. Edit: I should add, knowing what it's describing is important up until the point that you want to readily communicate with other musicians and have them communicate with you with full understanding, as quickly as possible, sometimes during performance - then the language of music theory becomes very useful.

Rochus 5y ago
> how does the improviser know which notes are concordant and which dissonant against the chords of the known song without theory? A skilled/talented musician just hears that. It's like cooking: a good cook knows from experience which spices go with which dishes, without having to know the basic physics. > making up random stuff It always has random components, that's how humans operate; but good improvisers can produce music in real-time which sounds like composed/arranged music; the purpose of music is to entertain and please people; this goal can be fully achieved without any theory or prior arrangement.
- lewispollard 5y ago
  But music theory isn't on the level of physics, it's not what music is made of, it's more like a recipe - yes, you can intuitively cook a dish from experience, but at some point if you want to communicate that with others you have to write down the names and quantities of the things you're using, the temperatures and timings, and so on. And knowing lots of recipes allows you to much better understand how to tweak and improvise on your existing knowledge by adding new elements or substituting ingredients.
  - Rochus 5y ago
    There is a famous quote from Goethe, that aptly describes the situation: "Wenn ihr's nicht fühlt, ihr werdet's nicht erjagen" > And knowing lots of recipes allows you to much better understand how to tweak and improvise on your existing knowledge Sure, practice is helpful. And it is to be hoped that the conservatories are also helpful for something, if society invests so much money in them and so many professional musicians come out of them.
- parenthesis 5y ago
  It's both. Last night I was improvising a melody based on a chord progression I had just come up with. I heard the chord progression in my head without thinking about what the chords were. But then when I thought about it, I knew what they were, tested on my instrument, and wrote them down. Beginning to melodically improvise on the progression (with no backing) I was initially looking at my chart the whole time and thinking in theoretical terms. But, before long, I was having moments of losing track of where I was in the chart, but my mind's ear and my fingers still knew what to do to keep going within the harmony. I.e., you reach a point where you have internalised the sound of the chord changes, and you can just hear the lines you want to play, and your fingers just know how to play the notes that you hear. But to get to the point of being able to do that in a reasonably sophisticated way, one is mightily helped by thinking about things and practising things in a theory-informed way.
  - Rochus 5y ago
    An experienced musician with improvisation skills doesn't have to write down chords to be able to improvise. If you have a look at the non-academic music culture as you can still find it e.g. on the country side or in other popular music pieces are passed on by playing them and having the other musicians play along with them and repeat them. Music theory can be helpful, but it's not a "conditio sine qua non".
    - parenthesis 5y ago
      Oh, absolutely. In fact, I can recall improvising over a song purely by ear, and then coming up with some worse lines once I'd worked what the chords were and written them out.

Rochus 5y ago

> how does the improviser know which notes are concordant and which dissonant against the chords of the known song without theory? A skilled/talented musician just hears that. It's like cooking: a good cook knows from experience which spices go with which dishes, without having to know the basic physics. > making up random stuff It always has random components, that's how humans operate; but good improvisers can produce music in real-time which sounds like composed/arranged music; the purpose of music is to entertain and please people; this goal can be fully achieved without any theory or prior arrangement.

lewispollard 5y ago
But music theory isn't on the level of physics, it's not what music is made of, it's more like a recipe - yes, you can intuitively cook a dish from experience, but at some point if you want to communicate that with others you have to write down the names and quantities of the things you're using, the temperatures and timings, and so on. And knowing lots of recipes allows you to much better understand how to tweak and improvise on your existing knowledge by adding new elements or substituting ingredients.
- Rochus 5y ago
  There is a famous quote from Goethe, that aptly describes the situation: "Wenn ihr's nicht fühlt, ihr werdet's nicht erjagen" > And knowing lots of recipes allows you to much better understand how to tweak and improvise on your existing knowledge Sure, practice is helpful. And it is to be hoped that the conservatories are also helpful for something, if society invests so much money in them and so many professional musicians come out of them.
parenthesis 5y ago
It's both. Last night I was improvising a melody based on a chord progression I had just come up with. I heard the chord progression in my head without thinking about what the chords were. But then when I thought about it, I knew what they were, tested on my instrument, and wrote them down. Beginning to melodically improvise on the progression (with no backing) I was initially looking at my chart the whole time and thinking in theoretical terms. But, before long, I was having moments of losing track of where I was in the chart, but my mind's ear and my fingers still knew what to do to keep going within the harmony. I.e., you reach a point where you have internalised the sound of the chord changes, and you can just hear the lines you want to play, and your fingers just know how to play the notes that you hear. But to get to the point of being able to do that in a reasonably sophisticated way, one is mightily helped by thinking about things and practising things in a theory-informed way.
- Rochus 5y ago
  An experienced musician with improvisation skills doesn't have to write down chords to be able to improvise. If you have a look at the non-academic music culture as you can still find it e.g. on the country side or in other popular music pieces are passed on by playing them and having the other musicians play along with them and repeat them. Music theory can be helpful, but it's not a "conditio sine qua non".
  - parenthesis 5y ago
    Oh, absolutely. In fact, I can recall improvising over a song purely by ear, and then coming up with some worse lines once I'd worked what the chords were and written them out.