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Democracy isn't about getting rid of government action. It's about enabling the people to control that action. These freedom convoys are protesting in an ille

by enkid 5y ago

Democracy isn't about getting rid of government action. It's about enabling the people to control that action. These freedom convoys are protesting in an illegal way that disrupts people's ability to live their lives by blocking traffic, and have kept it up for weeks. At what point is the protest imposing unacceptable tyranny on the individuals who live on those streets? Certainly you would be against a government blockading people's homes.

pibechorro 5y ago
lowkey 5y ago
The price, measured in freedom, is too high in my opinion. In passing the Emergency Act the Canadian Government: - has given the banks the right to freeze bank accounts of suspected protesters without evidence and granted the banks full immunity. Even if the banks are mistaken or outright abuse this right, they can never be held liable in a court of law - has suspended the rights of the accused to defend themselves in a court of law stripping them of all due process rights - can now force two truck companies to carry out the government’s orders or face severe punishment. The tow truck companies haven’t even been accused of any crime but they have been stripped of their right to autonomy Civil liberties, once lost, are difficult or impossible to recover. I don’t believe the government can resist using their new powers again, now that the genie is out of the bottle. The right for dissidents to peacefully protest is essential to the functioning of a healthy democracy. With these latest moves, the Canadian people are decidedly less free. I don’t think the loss of freedoms was worth the price. This time the government targeted a movement that many Canadians disagree with, let’s hope for your sake they never target a minority you personally support, lest you suddenly find yourself unbanked.
- user_7832 5y ago
  To play The devil's advocate, what would you instead recommend to the government to do so that people could carry on with their lives and not have their likelihood shut down? > Civil liberties, once lost, are difficult or impossible to recover. I don’t believe the government can resist using their new powers again, now that the genie is out of the bottle. It might be new in Canada but governments have been doing this (using similar emergency laws) during the pandemic for a while. An anti-authoritarian person may feel that's extremely scary, while someone else may ask what else should a government do to prevent millions from dying, given that there are no pandemic-specific laws.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    > what would you instead recommend to the government to do so that people could carry on with their lives and not have their likelihood shut down? I understand how frustrating this is for Canadians who don't agree with either the protesters message or their tactics, but the suspending civil liberties for all Canadians is a dangerous precedent. It should only be used as a last resort and I don't think the Canadian Gov has exercised all their existing legal options yet. > What could the government do? 1. The leader of the Canadian government is the leader of all Canadians, even those he doesn't agree with. Rather than paint the entire protest movement as racist, misogynists with unacceptable views, one reasonable first tactic could have been to engage in dialogue with the protesters to hear out their grievances, perhaps with the aid of a mediator. Dialogue leads to de-escalation, marginalizing dissidents leads to escalation as we have seen here. 2. Before resorting to suspending civil liberties, access to the courts and due process, perhaps the government could have started by enforcing the laws already on the books. This is what they did at the Windsor-Detroit border and it appears they were able to end the blockade without violence from either side. It appears that in Ottawa, the police were reluctant to enforce the existing laws. This is a different problem and pretending the government had no choice but to employ draconian measures is disingenuous.
Gareth321 5y ago
>These freedom convoys are protesting in an illegal way "Illegal" is whatever the government decides. In Canada, they have written broad laws to make most forms of protest illegal. I am annoyed by protests for things I don't care about (or even dislike), but I acknowledge that protest has an extremely important place in democracy. It has been the force for positive change throughout history. To acquiesce to the de facto position that protesting should be illegal - and that is the effective message here - underscores a profound lack of understanding of the importance of the deeply democratic act. I can't recall the exact Monty Python line, but the sentiment seems appropriate now: "you may protest in the designated protesting square in the fenced section behind parliament. Just don't make any noise." To quote the infamous American Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, "the whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable."
0x445442 5y ago
The point is worse things were happening in the summer of 2020 but governments weren’t freezing funds then. This shows the actions are completely arbitrary and based on political ideology. Protection of civil liberties is not subject to the whims of the rulers nor even the whims of the majority in a free society.
actuator 5y ago
Not taking sides with the merits of the protests, but it is laughable that a Canadian government which was lecturing an Indian one on how to handle protests is using these tactics.

by enkid 5y ago

pibechorro 5y ago

lowkey 5y ago

The price, measured in freedom, is too high in my opinion. In passing the Emergency Act the Canadian Government: - has given the banks the right to freeze bank accounts of suspected protesters without evidence and granted the banks full immunity. Even if the banks are mistaken or outright abuse this right, they can never be held liable in a court of law - has suspended the rights of the accused to defend themselves in a court of law stripping them of all due process rights - can now force two truck companies to carry out the government’s orders or face severe punishment. The tow truck companies haven’t even been accused of any crime but they have been stripped of their right to autonomy Civil liberties, once lost, are difficult or impossible to recover. I don’t believe the government can resist using their new powers again, now that the genie is out of the bottle. The right for dissidents to peacefully protest is essential to the functioning of a healthy democracy. With these latest moves, the Canadian people are decidedly less free. I don’t think the loss of freedoms was worth the price. This time the government targeted a movement that many Canadians disagree with, let’s hope for your sake they never target a minority you personally support, lest you suddenly find yourself unbanked.

user_7832 5y ago
To play The devil's advocate, what would you instead recommend to the government to do so that people could carry on with their lives and not have their likelihood shut down? > Civil liberties, once lost, are difficult or impossible to recover. I don’t believe the government can resist using their new powers again, now that the genie is out of the bottle. It might be new in Canada but governments have been doing this (using similar emergency laws) during the pandemic for a while. An anti-authoritarian person may feel that's extremely scary, while someone else may ask what else should a government do to prevent millions from dying, given that there are no pandemic-specific laws.
- lowkey 5y ago
  > what would you instead recommend to the government to do so that people could carry on with their lives and not have their likelihood shut down? I understand how frustrating this is for Canadians who don't agree with either the protesters message or their tactics, but the suspending civil liberties for all Canadians is a dangerous precedent. It should only be used as a last resort and I don't think the Canadian Gov has exercised all their existing legal options yet. > What could the government do? 1. The leader of the Canadian government is the leader of all Canadians, even those he doesn't agree with. Rather than paint the entire protest movement as racist, misogynists with unacceptable views, one reasonable first tactic could have been to engage in dialogue with the protesters to hear out their grievances, perhaps with the aid of a mediator. Dialogue leads to de-escalation, marginalizing dissidents leads to escalation as we have seen here. 2. Before resorting to suspending civil liberties, access to the courts and due process, perhaps the government could have started by enforcing the laws already on the books. This is what they did at the Windsor-Detroit border and it appears they were able to end the blockade without violence from either side. It appears that in Ottawa, the police were reluctant to enforce the existing laws. This is a different problem and pretending the government had no choice but to employ draconian measures is disingenuous.

Gareth321 5y ago

>These freedom convoys are protesting in an illegal way "Illegal" is whatever the government decides. In Canada, they have written broad laws to make most forms of protest illegal. I am annoyed by protests for things I don't care about (or even dislike), but I acknowledge that protest has an extremely important place in democracy. It has been the force for positive change throughout history. To acquiesce to the de facto position that protesting should be illegal - and that is the effective message here - underscores a profound lack of understanding of the importance of the deeply democratic act. I can't recall the exact Monty Python line, but the sentiment seems appropriate now: "you may protest in the designated protesting square in the fenced section behind parliament. Just don't make any noise." To quote the infamous American Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, "the whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable."

0x445442 5y ago

The point is worse things were happening in the summer of 2020 but governments weren’t freezing funds then. This shows the actions are completely arbitrary and based on political ideology. Protection of civil liberties is not subject to the whims of the rulers nor even the whims of the majority in a free society.

actuator 5y ago

Not taking sides with the merits of the protests, but it is laughable that a Canadian government which was lecturing an Indian one on how to handle protests is using these tactics.