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Any bitcoin related assessment that cites the Tulip mania is inherently suspect. It conflates two different, unrelated concepts: the tulips and the mania. We

Any bitcoin related assessment that cites the Tulip mania is inherently suspect. It conflates two different, unrelated concepts: the tulips and the mania. We have not banned tulips because of the Tulip mania. Bitcoin and blockchain are genius technology, on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics and theoretical physics. That some of this technology is misused and misinterpreted, incorrectly assessed, used for scams, has no bearing on the technology itself.

sailingparrot 5y ago
> Bitcoin and blockchain are genius technology, on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics and theoretical physics. How one can say that with a straight face is beyond me. And I say this as someone that find blockchain mechanisms/ideas very interesting.
- glofish 5y ago
  a distributed trusted ledger, where each selfish agent has to cooperate, while all transaction are out in public ... all on mathematical foundations, and it actually works in practice? how is that not genius?
  - sailingparrot 5y ago
    Yes it's pretty amazing I agree. I don't think your appreciation of blockchain is wrong. I think it is your appreciation for the greatest achievements in theoretical physics and mathematics that is.
  - bally0241 5y ago
    I agree with you one this...but for whatever reason it is not the prevailing opinion on HN. I think that is largely due to the fact that many people on here knew of it early enough to become fabulously rich, but dismissed it out of hand without really looking into it.
    - eric_cc 5y ago
      There seems to be a lot of a unhealthy bitter jealousy on HN toward cryptocurrency. And I believe you've nailed the reason why.
    - Yizahi 5y ago
      Oh yes, exactly how big minds on r/cryptocurrency said recently - gamers from r/gaming and r/pcgaming don't know how to properly play games and don't see true benefits of play2earn promised by crypto apologists; and programmers on r/programming are one month juniors after online courses who have no idea about computer science, blockchains and finance. Yes, that is definitely what's going on.
1shooner 5y ago
I would say that any assessment calling blockchain on par with the greatest achievements in theoretical physics to also be inherently suspect.
- glofish 5y ago
  the comparison to theoretical physics is regarding theoretical computations that actually do turn out as working in the real world. many mathematical concepts (most in fact) are abstract concepts in N dimensional spaces. It is theoretical physics when theory and reality have to match. that is the genius of Bitcoin, a theory that actually works in practice
  - loup-vaillant 5y ago
    Does it? Bitcoin was supposed to be a currency, and it was supposed to be distributed. I hear it started pretty well, but we eventually ended up with pathologically concentrated mining power (a relatively low number of players create all the Bitcoins), and an exchange structure closer to a pyramid scheme / speculative bubble / value store than an actual currency. And don't get me started on the ludicrous costs in energy and silicon. As far as I can tell the experiment failed, and we should shut it down before it does even more harm than it already has.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    But bitcoin doesn't work. If bitcoin worked, I'd be all in. But a currency I can't reasonably buy a donut with is not a currency.
enkid 5y ago
And any assessment calling Bitcoin and Blockchain on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics is suspect. Don't conflate Bitcoin with the underlying mathematical concepts that enabled them. Symmetric and asymmetric cryptography have immensely changed the way everyone on earth lives. Blockchain and Bitcoin have become buzzwords with no widespread new application beyond speculative investing.
- glofish 5y ago
  that is like saying electricity has allowed us to build computers yeah of course, but there are many other genius discoveries that had to go along with it
  - enkid 5y ago
    What have bitcoin and blockchain achieved for the average person that makes them comparable to computers? I don't see it.
mapcars 5y ago
As I read it this comparison was only done in context of being "store of value".
7steps2much 5y ago
> Bitcoin and blockchain are genius technology, on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics and theoretical physics. The only genius about those technologies is cryptography. If that's enough to make technologies build on top of it on par with the greatest achievements then every single crypto trojan is one of humans greatest achievements.
- glofish 5y ago
  your equivalency falls apart at the first common sense example the first person building a airplane is a genius, the CEO of Spirit Airlines is not a genius
  - 7steps2much 5y ago
    Let's roll with that example then! I think we can both agree that the Wright brothers were pretty genius. They no doubt accomplished something that can be described as a feat of engineering. Now, the CEO of Spirit airlines clearly isn't a genius, but he doesn't build things anyways, so it's kind of an apple to oranges comparison. Let's instead use an example that's closer to the original cryptography to crypto currency comparison shall we? Let's compare the Wright brothers to an engineer called Josh working at an airplane manufacturer of your choosing. I will go with Boeing but you choose whichever you would like. Whenever Josh builds a new plane he uses knowledge passed down and refined by previous aviation engineers, knowledge that can eventually be traced back to the Wright brothers. He builds on this knowledge and as such creates great plans. This makes him a pretty good engineer! But does it make his plains "on par" with the greatest achievements of humanity? If so, at what point do they stop being on par? Will they ever? Is every plane one of humanities greatest achievements? And if that's the case, is every tire on every car one of humanities greatest achievements? I think we both agree that cryptography is a great achievement of mathematics. It's something that will see uses well into the future. But that's cryptography as a whole, not a specific algorithm. Crypto currency and blockchains are not world altering inventions. They are simply products of engineering, build on mathematical knowledge. And while you might be able to argue that they are good engineer, they definitely are not mathematical or theoretical physics achievements. They are simply a product using those achievement, just like databases, rockets and cars are.
manojlds 5y ago
Well, the Indian govt is planning to start their own decision digital currency, so they are not banning blockchain.
- democracy 5y ago
  I heard they gonna ban blockchain after banning 2-space tabs!
RegW 5y ago
> We have not banned tulips because of the Tulip mania. True, but now we grow them as flowers, rather than hold them as a potential source of value or use them for exchange.
- glofish 5y ago
  what? that makes no sense, Are you saying that there is no business that transacts in tulip bulbs? Are you saying there are no resellers of tulip bulbs? No tulip bulb traders? > The average bulb grower in Holland sells almost $200,000 worth of bulbs every year, It is also worth noting (though not directly relevant) that the "Tulip Mania" probably never happened, it is all a myth or greatly embellished story, told and retold countless of times, each time growing in claims. Makes for a captivating story to audiences looking for validation.
Traster 5y ago
No reasonably informed person is talking about Tulips when they cite Tulip mania, they're talking about the speculative bubble around Tulips. To put it in a different context, when we talk about the global financial crisis of 2007, no one suggests we should ban owning houses, but we did need to heavily regulate the financial instruments that drove the creation of that bubble. And if we're going to talk about mania I've got a great example of mania for you: > Bitcoin and blockchain are genius technology, on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics and theoretical physics. You're basically demonstrating the mania that you decry. I'd love to hear on what basis you can possibly argue that bitcoin/blockchain is somehow on the same level as the discovery of gravity, or the discovery of radioactivity, or the theory of relativity.
- glofish 5y ago
  gravity did not need to be discovered :-) everyone was subjected to it all the time on a more serious note, for what is worth, discovering radioactivity was accidental, there was no premeditated thought process, so that does not count ;-) now when it comes to relativity - that indeed required a radical idea, the constancy of speed of light. Which required a genius. Like bitcoin. I did not say bitcoin was better than the theory of relativity, I said on par.

sailingparrot 5y ago

> Bitcoin and blockchain are genius technology, on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics and theoretical physics. How one can say that with a straight face is beyond me. And I say this as someone that find blockchain mechanisms/ideas very interesting.

glofish 5y ago
a distributed trusted ledger, where each selfish agent has to cooperate, while all transaction are out in public ... all on mathematical foundations, and it actually works in practice? how is that not genius?
- sailingparrot 5y ago
  Yes it's pretty amazing I agree. I don't think your appreciation of blockchain is wrong. I think it is your appreciation for the greatest achievements in theoretical physics and mathematics that is.
- bally0241 5y ago
  I agree with you one this...but for whatever reason it is not the prevailing opinion on HN. I think that is largely due to the fact that many people on here knew of it early enough to become fabulously rich, but dismissed it out of hand without really looking into it.
  - eric_cc 5y ago
    There seems to be a lot of a unhealthy bitter jealousy on HN toward cryptocurrency. And I believe you've nailed the reason why.
  - Yizahi 5y ago
    Oh yes, exactly how big minds on r/cryptocurrency said recently - gamers from r/gaming and r/pcgaming don't know how to properly play games and don't see true benefits of play2earn promised by crypto apologists; and programmers on r/programming are one month juniors after online courses who have no idea about computer science, blockchains and finance. Yes, that is definitely what's going on.

1shooner 5y ago

I would say that any assessment calling blockchain on par with the greatest achievements in theoretical physics to also be inherently suspect.

glofish 5y ago
the comparison to theoretical physics is regarding theoretical computations that actually do turn out as working in the real world. many mathematical concepts (most in fact) are abstract concepts in N dimensional spaces. It is theoretical physics when theory and reality have to match. that is the genius of Bitcoin, a theory that actually works in practice
- loup-vaillant 5y ago
  Does it? Bitcoin was supposed to be a currency, and it was supposed to be distributed. I hear it started pretty well, but we eventually ended up with pathologically concentrated mining power (a relatively low number of players create all the Bitcoins), and an exchange structure closer to a pyramid scheme / speculative bubble / value store than an actual currency. And don't get me started on the ludicrous costs in energy and silicon. As far as I can tell the experiment failed, and we should shut it down before it does even more harm than it already has.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  But bitcoin doesn't work. If bitcoin worked, I'd be all in. But a currency I can't reasonably buy a donut with is not a currency.

enkid 5y ago

And any assessment calling Bitcoin and Blockchain on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics is suspect. Don't conflate Bitcoin with the underlying mathematical concepts that enabled them. Symmetric and asymmetric cryptography have immensely changed the way everyone on earth lives. Blockchain and Bitcoin have become buzzwords with no widespread new application beyond speculative investing.

glofish 5y ago
that is like saying electricity has allowed us to build computers yeah of course, but there are many other genius discoveries that had to go along with it
- enkid 5y ago
  What have bitcoin and blockchain achieved for the average person that makes them comparable to computers? I don't see it.

mapcars 5y ago

As I read it this comparison was only done in context of being "store of value".

7steps2much 5y ago

> Bitcoin and blockchain are genius technology, on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics and theoretical physics. The only genius about those technologies is cryptography. If that's enough to make technologies build on top of it on par with the greatest achievements then every single crypto trojan is one of humans greatest achievements.

glofish 5y ago
your equivalency falls apart at the first common sense example the first person building a airplane is a genius, the CEO of Spirit Airlines is not a genius
- 7steps2much 5y ago
  Let's roll with that example then! I think we can both agree that the Wright brothers were pretty genius. They no doubt accomplished something that can be described as a feat of engineering. Now, the CEO of Spirit airlines clearly isn't a genius, but he doesn't build things anyways, so it's kind of an apple to oranges comparison. Let's instead use an example that's closer to the original cryptography to crypto currency comparison shall we? Let's compare the Wright brothers to an engineer called Josh working at an airplane manufacturer of your choosing. I will go with Boeing but you choose whichever you would like. Whenever Josh builds a new plane he uses knowledge passed down and refined by previous aviation engineers, knowledge that can eventually be traced back to the Wright brothers. He builds on this knowledge and as such creates great plans. This makes him a pretty good engineer! But does it make his plains "on par" with the greatest achievements of humanity? If so, at what point do they stop being on par? Will they ever? Is every plane one of humanities greatest achievements? And if that's the case, is every tire on every car one of humanities greatest achievements? I think we both agree that cryptography is a great achievement of mathematics. It's something that will see uses well into the future. But that's cryptography as a whole, not a specific algorithm. Crypto currency and blockchains are not world altering inventions. They are simply products of engineering, build on mathematical knowledge. And while you might be able to argue that they are good engineer, they definitely are not mathematical or theoretical physics achievements. They are simply a product using those achievement, just like databases, rockets and cars are.

manojlds 5y ago

Well, the Indian govt is planning to start their own decision digital currency, so they are not banning blockchain.

democracy 5y ago
I heard they gonna ban blockchain after banning 2-space tabs!

RegW 5y ago

> We have not banned tulips because of the Tulip mania. True, but now we grow them as flowers, rather than hold them as a potential source of value or use them for exchange.

glofish 5y ago
what? that makes no sense, Are you saying that there is no business that transacts in tulip bulbs? Are you saying there are no resellers of tulip bulbs? No tulip bulb traders? > The average bulb grower in Holland sells almost $200,000 worth of bulbs every year, It is also worth noting (though not directly relevant) that the "Tulip Mania" probably never happened, it is all a myth or greatly embellished story, told and retold countless of times, each time growing in claims. Makes for a captivating story to audiences looking for validation.

Traster 5y ago

No reasonably informed person is talking about Tulips when they cite Tulip mania, they're talking about the speculative bubble around Tulips. To put it in a different context, when we talk about the global financial crisis of 2007, no one suggests we should ban owning houses, but we did need to heavily regulate the financial instruments that drove the creation of that bubble. And if we're going to talk about mania I've got a great example of mania for you: > Bitcoin and blockchain are genius technology, on par with the greatest achievements in mathematics and theoretical physics. You're basically demonstrating the mania that you decry. I'd love to hear on what basis you can possibly argue that bitcoin/blockchain is somehow on the same level as the discovery of gravity, or the discovery of radioactivity, or the theory of relativity.

glofish 5y ago
gravity did not need to be discovered :-) everyone was subjected to it all the time on a more serious note, for what is worth, discovering radioactivity was accidental, there was no premeditated thought process, so that does not count ;-) now when it comes to relativity - that indeed required a radical idea, the constancy of speed of light. Which required a genius. Like bitcoin. I did not say bitcoin was better than the theory of relativity, I said on par.