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>The hope is that in the future crypto breaks free of the connection to fiat wow, I don't know what kind of hope this is, and I avoid commenting on any crypto

by xxs 5y ago

>The hope is that in the future crypto breaks free of the connection to fiat wow, I don't know what kind of hope this is, and I avoid commenting on any crypto currency[0]. Since the comment appears to be genuine, I've felt compelled. [0]: calling it them "crypto" is an insult to the rest of the cryptography, though

__MatrixMan__ 5y ago
I think that having more than one type of money to represent different types of value is a reasonable thing to want. We're operating under this illusion that all value is the same because we use USD as a unit of account, but it causes a lot problems. To give just one example, look at US policy in Latin America in the 80s: We would give weapons to terrorists, and the bargain was that once they had overthrown their governments, the new ones would respect our money. Then, having made ourselves into aristocrats, we'd come in and make off with their natural resources (e.g. Chilean copper). Better would be that if you want to influence people in a community that you aren't a member of, you have to contribute types of value that actually align with the values of those people. Of course having only two types, as GP suggests: fiat-value and crypto-value--that's a pretty impoverished type system. I'd rather have carbon-footprint-value and space-exploration-value and infrastrucure-maintenance-value... so that the allocation of types of value in my wallet are sort of an expression of my political will. This way, poison-the-well-and-sell-bottled-water-value can be rejected by pretty much everybody (as it should), while other sectors remain untarnished.
- eric_cc 5y ago
  Great point. How would you represent/express space exploration value?
  - __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
    Well it would have a unit, call it parsecs or whatever, and individuals would configure their wallets to hold it at some percentage. If I'm a space nerd maybe I keep 50% of my wealth in parsecs, or if I think space exploration is a misallocation of resources maybe I keep 0% of it in parsecs.
    - eric_cc 5y ago
      I like the spirit of what you're saying here. It touches on why I think crypto/decentralized systems could have a domino effect that disrupts how people organize and govern. You like space and would be able to "vote" for it directly.
      - __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
        Yeah, the directness of it appeals to me. By holding a token and using it as money, I give power to whoever controls its issuance. I'd like more choices about who that is.
- smaryjerry 5y ago
  You’ve just invented capitalism and the stock market. Seriously though, in a free market system if you want to support space travel you would invest and thus own a portion of companies making space travel possible. Problem is that theses systems are not going to be mutually exclusive like you want because everything will always be tradable. If I have gold and you have space coloration there will always be a trade that makes it worth while.
  - __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
    It might be properly called capitalism, but it's not the capitalism that we practice. Because the money we use is not specific about its intent, people have to accept or reject it all together. It's too big to fail. You can't decline to do business in slavery-money because you have no way of knowing which money is slavery-money. It's all just money-money. In a typed-value system, you can notice that a certain kind of value is associated with economic activity that hurts people, and you can respond by setting it to 0% in your wallet. This will prevent you from accidentally contributing to its continuation. If all of the good guys do this, then the only people left for the bad guys to do business with will be other bad guys--which will make it more expensive for them to operate. Sure, factions will emerge, but rather than being delusional about their own efficacy and a drag on the entire system, unsustainable or otherwise objectionable economies will eventually find that nobody accepts their money, and they'll have to change their ways. You shouldn't be able to retire on wealth made at future generations' expense. Instead, saving for retirement should involve contributing to endeavors that future generations will be happy about. > If I have gold and you have space coloration there will always be a trade that makes it worth while. By keeping gold to yourself (and out of the electronics that are useful for making space ships) you're holding back the projects that I think are important. So there's one reason for me to not value your gold, what reason do I have to value it?

by xxs 5y ago

__MatrixMan__ 5y ago

I think that having more than one type of money to represent different types of value is a reasonable thing to want. We're operating under this illusion that all value is the same because we use USD as a unit of account, but it causes a lot problems. To give just one example, look at US policy in Latin America in the 80s: We would give weapons to terrorists, and the bargain was that once they had overthrown their governments, the new ones would respect our money. Then, having made ourselves into aristocrats, we'd come in and make off with their natural resources (e.g. Chilean copper). Better would be that if you want to influence people in a community that you aren't a member of, you have to contribute types of value that actually align with the values of those people. Of course having only two types, as GP suggests: fiat-value and crypto-value--that's a pretty impoverished type system. I'd rather have carbon-footprint-value and space-exploration-value and infrastrucure-maintenance-value... so that the allocation of types of value in my wallet are sort of an expression of my political will. This way, poison-the-well-and-sell-bottled-water-value can be rejected by pretty much everybody (as it should), while other sectors remain untarnished.

eric_cc 5y ago
Great point. How would you represent/express space exploration value?
- __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
  Well it would have a unit, call it parsecs or whatever, and individuals would configure their wallets to hold it at some percentage. If I'm a space nerd maybe I keep 50% of my wealth in parsecs, or if I think space exploration is a misallocation of resources maybe I keep 0% of it in parsecs.
  - eric_cc 5y ago
    I like the spirit of what you're saying here. It touches on why I think crypto/decentralized systems could have a domino effect that disrupts how people organize and govern. You like space and would be able to "vote" for it directly.
    - __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
      Yeah, the directness of it appeals to me. By holding a token and using it as money, I give power to whoever controls its issuance. I'd like more choices about who that is.
smaryjerry 5y ago
You’ve just invented capitalism and the stock market. Seriously though, in a free market system if you want to support space travel you would invest and thus own a portion of companies making space travel possible. Problem is that theses systems are not going to be mutually exclusive like you want because everything will always be tradable. If I have gold and you have space coloration there will always be a trade that makes it worth while.
- __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
  It might be properly called capitalism, but it's not the capitalism that we practice. Because the money we use is not specific about its intent, people have to accept or reject it all together. It's too big to fail. You can't decline to do business in slavery-money because you have no way of knowing which money is slavery-money. It's all just money-money. In a typed-value system, you can notice that a certain kind of value is associated with economic activity that hurts people, and you can respond by setting it to 0% in your wallet. This will prevent you from accidentally contributing to its continuation. If all of the good guys do this, then the only people left for the bad guys to do business with will be other bad guys--which will make it more expensive for them to operate. Sure, factions will emerge, but rather than being delusional about their own efficacy and a drag on the entire system, unsustainable or otherwise objectionable economies will eventually find that nobody accepts their money, and they'll have to change their ways. You shouldn't be able to retire on wealth made at future generations' expense. Instead, saving for retirement should involve contributing to endeavors that future generations will be happy about. > If I have gold and you have space coloration there will always be a trade that makes it worth while. By keeping gold to yourself (and out of the electronics that are useful for making space ships) you're holding back the projects that I think are important. So there's one reason for me to not value your gold, what reason do I have to value it?