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He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in). No. I will not read

He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in). No. I will not read the book, because all information in it will be stretched analogies. Trust me when I say this, the two fields are different.

sachinag 15y ago
How and why is a blog post I would like to read.
mattmanser 15y ago
I'm starting to agree with you, the length's he's going to in order to stretch the analogy is starting to get absurd. I'm beginning to dread any post with the word 'Lean' in it.
viscanti 15y ago
It's not stretched analogies. The only thing it borrows from Lean Manufacturing is the idea of small batch sizes. It doesn't make the case that startups are like manufacturing. You don't HAVE to read the book, but you're making a faulty argument based on preconceived notions you had that were wrong. Reading the book would help clear that up for you. It's actually a fantastic read, with wonderful depth. You might actually learn a thing or two. I was pleasantly surprised with it. It should be the 'Crossing the Chasm' of this decade.
mmahemoff 15y ago
Actually, ther's very little mention of auto manufacturing in the book. Most case studies are IT industry and it goes way beyond some half-assed attempt to graft principles from another industry.
plinkplonk 15y ago
"He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in)." I haven't read Ries's book but the "Lean Software" book by the Poppendiecks was full of over-stretched analogies and feel-good management book style anecdotes. There was a push to make "Lean Software" into an enterprise software fad to succeed "Agile", but it never really took off. I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" (lots of consultantware and repackaging of simple and old concepts and not enough "meat" for working devs/PMs). It does have that fad-of-the-day smell though. Lots of marketing and glibness and sizzle. How much steak? Time will tell. PS: I don't agree with the folks downvoting you. You have a valid point worth considering. If you could post a few lines on what you see as the specific differences between the two fields and the "snake oil" bits that you perceive that would be cool.
- gruseom 15y ago
  I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" Isn't it already? They seem very similar to me.
  - sarbogast 15y ago
    In fact, Lean Startup includes agile methodologies for product development. Both work hand in hand. The last thing we miss to complete the perfect environment is Lean Investment. But in a sense, isn't it what YCombinator, 500startups and other accelerators are already doing? What I don't understand is why he hopes Startup doesn't become the new Agile. Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects. I would hope Lean Startup will decrease failure rates in the same proportions for startups.
    - plinkplonk 15y ago
      "Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects." (Reliable non vendorware) Citation needed. How have "agile methodologies" made "awesome transformations" any more than the previous methodology fad(RUP I believe)? Then, a lot of consultants ran around raving about uml diagrams etc and the rate of failure of projects didn't change. With the formulation of agile, a lot of consultants ran around raving about TDD and Scrum and so on. Do you have any non anecdotal evidence about this massive industry transformation and "great decrease of failure rates"? If so you should publish pronto because, afaik, no one has that kind of evidence to date. This kind of sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious statement is the problem with the cult of agile.
      - sarbogast 15y ago
        It's only "sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious" if you discard the facts that ARE there: http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figure1 http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figur... Scott Ambler has been running these surveys for a few years now, and they are consistent. In 2010, agile and iterative methodologies (that include RUP, which is rybbish I agree, but looking at the facts here) lead to +10% in success rate compared to ad-hoc or waterfall. But now you are going to tell me Scott Ambler is one of these agile consultants preaching for his own church, right?
DanielRibeiro 15y ago
Mary and Tom Poppendieck reframed Lean for Software Development a long time ago. You can literally see for yourself: http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 Eric Ries took the jump to startups, but the seeds were already there. He took Agile from known problem/unknown solution to a situation with unknown problem/unknown solution situation.

sachinag 15y ago

How and why is a blog post I would like to read.

mattmanser 15y ago

I'm starting to agree with you, the length's he's going to in order to stretch the analogy is starting to get absurd. I'm beginning to dread any post with the word 'Lean' in it.

viscanti 15y ago

It's not stretched analogies. The only thing it borrows from Lean Manufacturing is the idea of small batch sizes. It doesn't make the case that startups are like manufacturing. You don't HAVE to read the book, but you're making a faulty argument based on preconceived notions you had that were wrong. Reading the book would help clear that up for you. It's actually a fantastic read, with wonderful depth. You might actually learn a thing or two. I was pleasantly surprised with it. It should be the 'Crossing the Chasm' of this decade.

mmahemoff 15y ago

Actually, ther's very little mention of auto manufacturing in the book. Most case studies are IT industry and it goes way beyond some half-assed attempt to graft principles from another industry.

plinkplonk 15y ago

"He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in)." I haven't read Ries's book but the "Lean Software" book by the Poppendiecks was full of over-stretched analogies and feel-good management book style anecdotes. There was a push to make "Lean Software" into an enterprise software fad to succeed "Agile", but it never really took off. I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" (lots of consultantware and repackaging of simple and old concepts and not enough "meat" for working devs/PMs). It does have that fad-of-the-day smell though. Lots of marketing and glibness and sizzle. How much steak? Time will tell. PS: I don't agree with the folks downvoting you. You have a valid point worth considering. If you could post a few lines on what you see as the specific differences between the two fields and the "snake oil" bits that you perceive that would be cool.

gruseom 15y ago
I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" Isn't it already? They seem very similar to me.
- sarbogast 15y ago
  In fact, Lean Startup includes agile methodologies for product development. Both work hand in hand. The last thing we miss to complete the perfect environment is Lean Investment. But in a sense, isn't it what YCombinator, 500startups and other accelerators are already doing? What I don't understand is why he hopes Startup doesn't become the new Agile. Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects. I would hope Lean Startup will decrease failure rates in the same proportions for startups.
  - plinkplonk 15y ago
    "Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects." (Reliable non vendorware) Citation needed. How have "agile methodologies" made "awesome transformations" any more than the previous methodology fad(RUP I believe)? Then, a lot of consultants ran around raving about uml diagrams etc and the rate of failure of projects didn't change. With the formulation of agile, a lot of consultants ran around raving about TDD and Scrum and so on. Do you have any non anecdotal evidence about this massive industry transformation and "great decrease of failure rates"? If so you should publish pronto because, afaik, no one has that kind of evidence to date. This kind of sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious statement is the problem with the cult of agile.
    - sarbogast 15y ago
      It's only "sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious" if you discard the facts that ARE there: http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figure1 http://www.ambysoft.com/surveys/agileFebruary2008.html#Figur... Scott Ambler has been running these surveys for a few years now, and they are consistent. In 2010, agile and iterative methodologies (that include RUP, which is rybbish I agree, but looking at the facts here) lead to +10% in success rate compared to ad-hoc or waterfall. But now you are going to tell me Scott Ambler is one of these agile consultants preaching for his own church, right?

DanielRibeiro 15y ago

Mary and Tom Poppendieck reframed Lean for Software Development a long time ago. You can literally see for yourself: http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 Eric Ries took the jump to startups, but the seeds were already there. He took Agile from known problem/unknown solution to a situation with unknown problem/unknown solution situation.