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Remember Bitcoin appeared in the context of the 2008 financial crisis, when the US government effectively authorized the bailout of massively-overleveraged bank

by hd4 5y ago

Remember Bitcoin appeared in the context of the 2008 financial crisis, when the US government effectively authorized the bailout of massively-overleveraged banks and put the burden on the taxpayer in the form of a diluted currency. When you look at things from that perspective, crypto becomes the only way out (or one of the only practical ways out) for people who don't like having to carry the burden of moronic bankers and of the ones who have the control over money creation. I would also like to live in a world where none of this is necessary, but we don't.

retube 5y ago
As if the scammers and con-artists operating in crypto are ANY better than the banks. Banks are not perfect, but they are highly regulated, and come with a ton of consumer protections. There's none of that in crypto, and people are getting scammed or having their crypto stolen ALL the time.
- hd4 5y ago
  No one claimed there weren't scammers in crypto, this is a phoney argument. The existence of scammers using fiat currency doesn't stop you from supporting fiat currency. This is about as legit an argument as the usual "pedos/terrorists/drug-dealers/mafia use the internet/encrypted messaging therefore internet/encrypted messaging BAD". Also, banks being regulated, don't make me laugh.
- eric_cc 5y ago
  Freedom has a cost. If people kept it simple and bought crypto like bitcoin or ethereum, they’d be fine. They get lured into get-rich-quick scams because of poor education and decision making skills.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"for people who don't like having to carry the burden of moronic bankers" I don't understand whats the gameplan here. So I don't like carrying the burdain of military adventures in the middle east, and the guy over there doesn't want him money to be wasted on space while we have problems down here/oversized military/given to poor people. Suppose now we are all 100% successfull at thos tax evasion (which we won't be), whats next? Government collapse and anarchy? Like what's the gameplan?
- hd4 5y ago
  Making the government accountable for what they spend money on seems like a good direction to go in. The government programs you mention are only possible because of easy access to the money printer, Bitcoin solves this. As for what's next, collapse/anarchy etc, who can really say? As always it's up to the people. Bitcoin places sensible limits on government spending power (and therefore on government power more generally). Governments now have to compete and act sensibly with the tax money they're "responsible" for in the same way any of us are responsible for how we spend our money.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    > ... easy access to the money printer, Bitcoin solves this. LOL. Tether has entered the chat....
  - automatic6131 5y ago
    >The government programs you mention are only possible because of easy access to the money printer, Bitcoin solves this. And replaces it with something _even_ worse.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    > Making the government accountable for what they spend money on seems like a good direction to go in. But you are not making them accountable, you are just making everyone poorer. They could still get away with collapsing the economy because of democratic deficit/partisanship/qualified immunity/shortcomings of the justice system/etc. These are the real causes. > As for what's next, collapse/anarchy etc, who can really say? If someone is advocating a change to the global financial system, I'd like a better answer than this. Communists sound like grand planners in comparison
- danuker 5y ago
  I believe in the utility of a fiscally sound government, which is why I pay taxes and I'm not moving to a tax haven. I do not believe in endlessly kicking the debt spiral can, towards repression of future generations. Bitcoin enforces fiscal soundness by virtue of not being debase-able, and providing much-needed competition to national currencies.
danbruc 5y ago
So you want crypto currencies in order to remove control over money supply from states and banks and replace it with a fixed or at least predetermined money supply? Everything else in the current system is fine or do you have additional reasons?
- hd4 5y ago
  Yes, a fixed supply is definitely one of the reasons I'm in favor of crypto over fiat. There are many others. I'm not even necessarily arguing solely in favor of crypto but it does come across as the most practical solution to a lot of problems with governance nowadays. >Everything else in the current system is fine Do you really think anyone here believes that?
  - danbruc 5y ago
    I want people to be precise about what they want so that there is actually something concrete one can discuss without hand-waving all the time. Fixed money supply, for example, does not require any crypto currency, just pass the necessary laws to fix the amount of money at the current level. And we can now think about the consequences of this, for example that it will encourage not spending money. There are many others. Which?
    - hd4 5y ago
      You say that like having fixed-supply money is a trivial factor, when it's actually the central problem with fiat currency and the reason we even need crypto. Giving governments the ability to pass laws to allow an arbitrary amount of fiat to be printed is the problem, because it effectively gives them the power to do what they like with no accountability to their electorate. Having a fixed-supply is not a matter of laws being passed, because in the real world, governments just do not want practical limits to their own spending power. The cycle of governments printing and diluting the currency until financial collapse is literally as old as recorded history. > Which? Precious metals, commodities (which is a large enough category in itself).
    - eric_cc 5y ago
amanaplanacanal 5y ago
If your concern is diluted currency, there are already tons of ways to hedge against that. Precious metals are traditional, but basically any non cash asset will work.

by hd4 5y ago

retube 5y ago

As if the scammers and con-artists operating in crypto are ANY better than the banks. Banks are not perfect, but they are highly regulated, and come with a ton of consumer protections. There's none of that in crypto, and people are getting scammed or having their crypto stolen ALL the time.

hd4 5y ago
No one claimed there weren't scammers in crypto, this is a phoney argument. The existence of scammers using fiat currency doesn't stop you from supporting fiat currency. This is about as legit an argument as the usual "pedos/terrorists/drug-dealers/mafia use the internet/encrypted messaging therefore internet/encrypted messaging BAD". Also, banks being regulated, don't make me laugh.
eric_cc 5y ago
Freedom has a cost. If people kept it simple and bought crypto like bitcoin or ethereum, they’d be fine. They get lured into get-rich-quick scams because of poor education and decision making skills.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"for people who don't like having to carry the burden of moronic bankers" I don't understand whats the gameplan here. So I don't like carrying the burdain of military adventures in the middle east, and the guy over there doesn't want him money to be wasted on space while we have problems down here/oversized military/given to poor people. Suppose now we are all 100% successfull at thos tax evasion (which we won't be), whats next? Government collapse and anarchy? Like what's the gameplan?

hd4 5y ago
Making the government accountable for what they spend money on seems like a good direction to go in. The government programs you mention are only possible because of easy access to the money printer, Bitcoin solves this. As for what's next, collapse/anarchy etc, who can really say? As always it's up to the people. Bitcoin places sensible limits on government spending power (and therefore on government power more generally). Governments now have to compete and act sensibly with the tax money they're "responsible" for in the same way any of us are responsible for how we spend our money.
- Nursie 5y ago
  > ... easy access to the money printer, Bitcoin solves this. LOL. Tether has entered the chat....
- automatic6131 5y ago
  >The government programs you mention are only possible because of easy access to the money printer, Bitcoin solves this. And replaces it with something _even_ worse.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  > Making the government accountable for what they spend money on seems like a good direction to go in. But you are not making them accountable, you are just making everyone poorer. They could still get away with collapsing the economy because of democratic deficit/partisanship/qualified immunity/shortcomings of the justice system/etc. These are the real causes. > As for what's next, collapse/anarchy etc, who can really say? If someone is advocating a change to the global financial system, I'd like a better answer than this. Communists sound like grand planners in comparison
danuker 5y ago
I believe in the utility of a fiscally sound government, which is why I pay taxes and I'm not moving to a tax haven. I do not believe in endlessly kicking the debt spiral can, towards repression of future generations. Bitcoin enforces fiscal soundness by virtue of not being debase-able, and providing much-needed competition to national currencies.

danbruc 5y ago

So you want crypto currencies in order to remove control over money supply from states and banks and replace it with a fixed or at least predetermined money supply? Everything else in the current system is fine or do you have additional reasons?

hd4 5y ago
Yes, a fixed supply is definitely one of the reasons I'm in favor of crypto over fiat. There are many others. I'm not even necessarily arguing solely in favor of crypto but it does come across as the most practical solution to a lot of problems with governance nowadays. >Everything else in the current system is fine Do you really think anyone here believes that?
- danbruc 5y ago
  I want people to be precise about what they want so that there is actually something concrete one can discuss without hand-waving all the time. Fixed money supply, for example, does not require any crypto currency, just pass the necessary laws to fix the amount of money at the current level. And we can now think about the consequences of this, for example that it will encourage not spending money. There are many others. Which?
  - hd4 5y ago
    You say that like having fixed-supply money is a trivial factor, when it's actually the central problem with fiat currency and the reason we even need crypto. Giving governments the ability to pass laws to allow an arbitrary amount of fiat to be printed is the problem, because it effectively gives them the power to do what they like with no accountability to their electorate. Having a fixed-supply is not a matter of laws being passed, because in the real world, governments just do not want practical limits to their own spending power. The cycle of governments printing and diluting the currency until financial collapse is literally as old as recorded history. > Which? Precious metals, commodities (which is a large enough category in itself).
  - eric_cc 5y ago

amanaplanacanal 5y ago

If your concern is diluted currency, there are already tons of ways to hedge against that. Precious metals are traditional, but basically any non cash asset will work.