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Eric Ries Tells Lean Startups: “Stop The Line So That The Line Never Stops”

18 points by grigy 15y ago

praeclarum 15y ago
Snake oil salesman. Read the quick bio: everything revolves around him teaching how to do development, not actually leading any real projects. I worked at GM during the lean craze and read my fill of these "we should be doing it like the Japanese" articles back then. If the Japanese pooped in a paper bag and left it by the door, then our managers thought there must be genius in that bag and would force us to do the same. It was insanity. Lean == Snake Oil
- sarbogast 15y ago
  Hum... just saying... the guy was a co-founder at IMVU. That's at least one real project. You should really read his book.
  - praeclarum 15y ago
    He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in). No. I will not read the book, because all information in it will be stretched analogies. Trust me when I say this, the two fields are different.
    - sachinag 15y ago
      How and why is a blog post I would like to read.
    - mattmanser 15y ago
      I'm starting to agree with you, the length's he's going to in order to stretch the analogy is starting to get absurd. I'm beginning to dread any post with the word 'Lean' in it.
    - viscanti 15y ago
      It's not stretched analogies. The only thing it borrows from Lean Manufacturing is the idea of small batch sizes. It doesn't make the case that startups are like manufacturing. You don't HAVE to read the book, but you're making a faulty argument based on preconceived notions you had that were wrong. Reading the book would help clear that up for you. It's actually a fantastic read, with wonderful depth. You might actually learn a thing or two. I was pleasantly surprised with it. It should be the 'Crossing the Chasm' of this decade.
    - mmahemoff 15y ago
      Actually, ther's very little mention of auto manufacturing in the book. Most case studies are IT industry and it goes way beyond some half-assed attempt to graft principles from another industry.
    - plinkplonk 15y ago
      "He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in)." I haven't read Ries's book but the "Lean Software" book by the Poppendiecks was full of over-stretched analogies and feel-good management book style anecdotes. There was a push to make "Lean Software" into an enterprise software fad to succeed "Agile", but it never really took off. I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" (lots of consultantware and repackaging of simple and old concepts and not enough "meat" for working devs/PMs). It does have that fad-of-the-day smell though. Lots of marketing and glibness and sizzle. How much steak? Time will tell. PS: I don't agree with the folks downvoting you. You have a valid point worth considering. If you could post a few lines on what you see as the specific differences between the two fields and the "snake oil" bits that you perceive that would be cool.
      - gruseom 15y ago
        I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" Isn't it already? They seem very similar to me.
        sarbogast 15y ago
        In fact, Lean Startup includes agile methodologies for product development. Both work hand in hand. The last thing we miss to complete the perfect environment is Lean Investment. But in a sense, isn't it what YCombinator, 500startups and other accelerators are already doing? What I don't understand is why he hopes Startup doesn't become the new Agile. Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects. I would hope Lean Startup will decrease failure rates in the same proportions for startups.
        plinkplonk 15y ago
        "Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects." (Reliable non vendorware) Citation needed. How have "agile methodologies" made "awesome transformations" any more than the previous methodology fad(RUP I believe)? Then, a lot of consultants ran around raving about uml diagrams etc and the rate of failure of projects didn't change. With the formulation of agile, a lot of consultants ran around raving about TDD and Scrum and so on. Do you have any non anecdotal evidence about this massive industry transformation and "great decrease of failure rates"? If so you should publish pronto because, afaik, no one has that kind of evidence to date. This kind of sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious statement is the problem with the cult of agile.
    - DanielRibeiro 15y ago
      Mary and Tom Poppendieck reframed Lean for Software Development a long time ago. You can literally see for yourself: http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 Eric Ries took the jump to startups, but the seeds were already there. He took Agile from known problem/unknown solution to a situation with unknown problem/unknown solution situation.
- viscanti 15y ago
  You obviously haven't read the book. I hesitated to read it because I thought it would be superficial and lack specifics and actual insights. I expected something on the level of Gary Vaynerchuk, that would focus on "hustle" and buzz-word startup terms. I (and you) couldn't have been more wrong. Lean startup is "Lean" in the sense that it advises the use of small batch sizes. Calling validated learning "Snake Oil" only shows that you haven't read the book and are unfamiliar with the Author and the other relevant info on the topic.
- lojack 15y ago
  I'm sorry but you literally picked the worst example in the world for why lean doesn't work.
- arkitaip 15y ago
  I find the concept interesting enough to order Eric Ries' book but I'm fully aware that it could be another silver bullet and maybe not that relevant for startups as lean/toyota production system/ has been developed for manufacturing and not the messy and crazy world of startups. I appreciate criticism of lean but I don't think you provided it.
- richcollins 15y ago
  He founded and ran IMVU, a company that is profitable and earns 10's of millions a year in revenue.
- jcampbell1 15y ago
  You are re-writing history. In the 90s GM/Ford/Chrysler consistently had the worst quality in the TGW surveys, and were scoring more than twice as many problems as the Japanese manufacturers. By the the mid 2000s, Buick had the highest quality ranking of any brand on the planet. The Americans caught up to the Japanese in terms of quality, and the European manufacturers lagged because they never felt the pressure of the Japanese makers in the domestic markets. I was at Ford when the way to win an argument was to just say, "that is how the Japanese do it". If the Japanese had DC rundown tools, we got DC rundown tools. If the japanese tradesman rode bikes, we got bicycles. If the Japanese don't inspect incoming parts, we don't inspect incoming parts. Yes it was annoying, but it did work, as the results speak for themselves.
DanielRibeiro 15y ago
This is actually part 3. For those who missed it: part 1: http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/23/founder-stories-eric-ries-lean-startup/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/23/founder-stories-eric-ries-l... part 2: http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/24/founder-stories-eric-ries-vanity-metrics http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/24/founder-stories-eric-ries-v...

18 points by grigy 15y ago

Snake oil salesman. Read the quick bio: everything revolves around him teaching how to do development, not actually leading any real projects. I worked at GM during the lean craze and read my fill of these "we should be doing it like the Japanese" articles back then. If the Japanese pooped in a paper bag and left it by the door, then our managers thought there must be genius in that bag and would force us to do the same. It was insanity. Lean == Snake Oil

sarbogast 15y ago
Hum... just saying... the guy was a co-founder at IMVU. That's at least one real project. You should really read his book.
- praeclarum 15y ago
  He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in). No. I will not read the book, because all information in it will be stretched analogies. Trust me when I say this, the two fields are different.
  - sachinag 15y ago
    How and why is a blog post I would like to read.
  - mattmanser 15y ago
    I'm starting to agree with you, the length's he's going to in order to stretch the analogy is starting to get absurd. I'm beginning to dread any post with the word 'Lean' in it.
  - viscanti 15y ago
    It's not stretched analogies. The only thing it borrows from Lean Manufacturing is the idea of small batch sizes. It doesn't make the case that startups are like manufacturing. You don't HAVE to read the book, but you're making a faulty argument based on preconceived notions you had that were wrong. Reading the book would help clear that up for you. It's actually a fantastic read, with wonderful depth. You might actually learn a thing or two. I was pleasantly surprised with it. It should be the 'Crossing the Chasm' of this decade.
  - mmahemoff 15y ago
    Actually, ther's very little mention of auto manufacturing in the book. Most case studies are IT industry and it goes way beyond some half-assed attempt to graft principles from another industry.
  - plinkplonk 15y ago
    "He's relating auto manufacturing (something I have experience with) to software development and startups (something I have experience in)." I haven't read Ries's book but the "Lean Software" book by the Poppendiecks was full of over-stretched analogies and feel-good management book style anecdotes. There was a push to make "Lean Software" into an enterprise software fad to succeed "Agile", but it never really took off. I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" (lots of consultantware and repackaging of simple and old concepts and not enough "meat" for working devs/PMs). It does have that fad-of-the-day smell though. Lots of marketing and glibness and sizzle. How much steak? Time will tell. PS: I don't agree with the folks downvoting you. You have a valid point worth considering. If you could post a few lines on what you see as the specific differences between the two fields and the "snake oil" bits that you perceive that would be cool.
    - gruseom 15y ago
      I hope "Lean Startup" doesn't become the new "Agile" Isn't it already? They seem very similar to me.
      - sarbogast 15y ago
        In fact, Lean Startup includes agile methodologies for product development. Both work hand in hand. The last thing we miss to complete the perfect environment is Lean Investment. But in a sense, isn't it what YCombinator, 500startups and other accelerators are already doing? What I don't understand is why he hopes Startup doesn't become the new Agile. Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects. I would hope Lean Startup will decrease failure rates in the same proportions for startups.
        plinkplonk 15y ago
        "Agile methodologies have transformed an entire industry in awesome ways and greatly decreased the failure rate of IT projects." (Reliable non vendorware) Citation needed. How have "agile methodologies" made "awesome transformations" any more than the previous methodology fad(RUP I believe)? Then, a lot of consultants ran around raving about uml diagrams etc and the rate of failure of projects didn't change. With the formulation of agile, a lot of consultants ran around raving about TDD and Scrum and so on. Do you have any non anecdotal evidence about this massive industry transformation and "great decrease of failure rates"? If so you should publish pronto because, afaik, no one has that kind of evidence to date. This kind of sweeping hyperbolic pseudo religious statement is the problem with the cult of agile.
  - DanielRibeiro 15y ago
    Mary and Tom Poppendieck reframed Lean for Software Development a long time ago. You can literally see for yourself: http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 http://www.infoq.com/interviews/poppendieck-lean-2007 Eric Ries took the jump to startups, but the seeds were already there. He took Agile from known problem/unknown solution to a situation with unknown problem/unknown solution situation.
viscanti 15y ago
You obviously haven't read the book. I hesitated to read it because I thought it would be superficial and lack specifics and actual insights. I expected something on the level of Gary Vaynerchuk, that would focus on "hustle" and buzz-word startup terms. I (and you) couldn't have been more wrong. Lean startup is "Lean" in the sense that it advises the use of small batch sizes. Calling validated learning "Snake Oil" only shows that you haven't read the book and are unfamiliar with the Author and the other relevant info on the topic.
lojack 15y ago
I'm sorry but you literally picked the worst example in the world for why lean doesn't work.
arkitaip 15y ago
I find the concept interesting enough to order Eric Ries' book but I'm fully aware that it could be another silver bullet and maybe not that relevant for startups as lean/toyota production system/ has been developed for manufacturing and not the messy and crazy world of startups. I appreciate criticism of lean but I don't think you provided it.
richcollins 15y ago
He founded and ran IMVU, a company that is profitable and earns 10's of millions a year in revenue.
jcampbell1 15y ago
You are re-writing history. In the 90s GM/Ford/Chrysler consistently had the worst quality in the TGW surveys, and were scoring more than twice as many problems as the Japanese manufacturers. By the the mid 2000s, Buick had the highest quality ranking of any brand on the planet. The Americans caught up to the Japanese in terms of quality, and the European manufacturers lagged because they never felt the pressure of the Japanese makers in the domestic markets. I was at Ford when the way to win an argument was to just say, "that is how the Japanese do it". If the Japanese had DC rundown tools, we got DC rundown tools. If the japanese tradesman rode bikes, we got bicycles. If the Japanese don't inspect incoming parts, we don't inspect incoming parts. Yes it was annoying, but it did work, as the results speak for themselves.

DanielRibeiro 15y ago

This is actually part 3. For those who missed it: part 1: http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/23/founder-stories-eric-ries-lean-startup/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/23/founder-stories-eric-ries-l... part 2: http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/24/founder-stories-eric-ries-vanity-metrics http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/24/founder-stories-eric-ries-v...