3 ms·

US priest uses wrong words for baptism; thousands may need to redo rite

9 points by graderjs 5y ago

ggm 5y ago
"Twelve Years in a Monastery" (1897) by Joseph McCabe Discussed this, and the risks that the prelate in question may have incorrectly baptised priests, which in turn invalidates ALL rites they perform, marriages, sacraments, the works. It's recursive. Probably, there is a STACKFAIL path out, the local bishop can do something to declare things valid. It's worth bearing in mid McCabe went "over the wall" and so was writing as a socialist-rationalist after he lost his faith. A catholic might well have reason to say he was wrong, and wrong at the time, as well as now. A truly wonderful historian of the Vatican is Peter Hebblethwaite. I recommend "in the vatican" (1986) -It's obviously overtaken by events (Ratzinger wasn't a pope then, so he's still the head of the inquisition in the book, future white hat yet to come). Hebblethwaite died in 94. Shame, I would have loved to read his take on things now.
- graderjs 5y ago
  > Probably, there is a STACKFAIL path out, the local bishop can do something to declare things valid. LOL! Also, thanks for the book info. Sounds like interesting reads! :)
  - ggm 5y ago
    McCabe wanted to write an exposé and at some level he did: the sheer amount of beer the belgian monks were drinking would do my liver in completely. But, putting that to one side, he writes well, and he writes interestingly of what the monastic life really meant in those days. McCabe is probably available as an E-book, he was published by the rationalist press. Hebblethwaite wasn't trying to undermine the church, he really believed. He wanted to help people understand the complexity of the back-story behind the positions they saw at the front, but also to see the machine at work. So he does a lot of writing about how things really get done. An Amazon reviewer is not as kind as me and said he writes well but its just no longer applicable. I can't say, but I still think I enjoyed reading it and would recommend. This one isn't an epub, you have to find secondhand copies.
jacobmartin 5y ago
When I came to a more "apostolic" branch of Christianity from a more "evangelical" branch, my own baptism was somewhat suspect because there had been a separation of matter and form. (The words were said and then I was baptized, rather than them being said while I was baptized.) The bishop ended up saying it was okay. I wonder if the CDF is being a little overzealous here. The sacraments (especially baptism) are hard to break if they are done with the proper intent. The Catholic Church has historically recognized other forms which seem further away than just "I" to "we". For instance, it recognized "the servant of God is baptized" and possibly even "may you be baptized" (see https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#vi https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#vi). In fact it seems to border almost on superstition to belabor this point and is somewhat scandalous. But I'm episcopal and not Catholic, and not a theologian, so I don't really have any authority in the matter.
- graderjs 5y ago
  Interesting story about your baptism. Glad the bishop was cool with it. These sounds like good points about the language forms, and what you say also makes me think of: how does the Church handle baptism in languages that make no distinction between "I" and "we"...and if that's the case...how might that affect it in languages that do, regarding consistency? But this might be an unimportant thing to consider, I'm no expert ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
prirun 5y ago
Don't worry, an all-knowing God will get it.
- bradwood 5y ago
  But he might require you to sacrifice your first born at an altar to Him... You know... Just to show how pious you are first... Then he'll say "Stop, I was only kidding"... Funny guy.
WalterGR 5y ago
Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30348624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30348624 I’ll repeat my comment from there: Even worse, if one of the partners in a marriage was baptised by this priest, and the marriage was performed by the Catholic church, they may need to get re-married. “The error also means that because baptism is the first of the sacraments, some people will need to repeat other sacraments, according to the diocese webpage for frequently asked questions.” “According to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, there are seven sacraments in the Catholic church: baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, reconciliation, anointing the sick, marriage and holy orders.” https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/14/us/pastor-invalid-baptisms-resignation/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/14/us/pastor-invalid-baptisms-re... FAQ: https://dphx.org/valid-baptisms/#FAQ https://dphx.org/valid-baptisms/#FAQ
moistly 5y ago
So the folk who have died are S.O.L.? At best they’re in limbo or purgatory, at worst their illegitimate baptism places them in hell. Oopsy?
- bradwood 5y ago
  It's probably okay. When they get to the Pearly Gates St Peter should be in an understanding mood.
jqpabc123 5y ago
Really? At what point do we just label this superstitious nonsense what it really is --- a psychosis, a mental illness.

9 points by graderjs 5y ago

ggm 5y ago

"Twelve Years in a Monastery" (1897) by Joseph McCabe Discussed this, and the risks that the prelate in question may have incorrectly baptised priests, which in turn invalidates ALL rites they perform, marriages, sacraments, the works. It's recursive. Probably, there is a STACKFAIL path out, the local bishop can do something to declare things valid. It's worth bearing in mid McCabe went "over the wall" and so was writing as a socialist-rationalist after he lost his faith. A catholic might well have reason to say he was wrong, and wrong at the time, as well as now. A truly wonderful historian of the Vatican is Peter Hebblethwaite. I recommend "in the vatican" (1986) -It's obviously overtaken by events (Ratzinger wasn't a pope then, so he's still the head of the inquisition in the book, future white hat yet to come). Hebblethwaite died in 94. Shame, I would have loved to read his take on things now.

graderjs 5y ago
> Probably, there is a STACKFAIL path out, the local bishop can do something to declare things valid. LOL! Also, thanks for the book info. Sounds like interesting reads! :)
- ggm 5y ago
  McCabe wanted to write an exposé and at some level he did: the sheer amount of beer the belgian monks were drinking would do my liver in completely. But, putting that to one side, he writes well, and he writes interestingly of what the monastic life really meant in those days. McCabe is probably available as an E-book, he was published by the rationalist press. Hebblethwaite wasn't trying to undermine the church, he really believed. He wanted to help people understand the complexity of the back-story behind the positions they saw at the front, but also to see the machine at work. So he does a lot of writing about how things really get done. An Amazon reviewer is not as kind as me and said he writes well but its just no longer applicable. I can't say, but I still think I enjoyed reading it and would recommend. This one isn't an epub, you have to find secondhand copies.

jacobmartin 5y ago

When I came to a more "apostolic" branch of Christianity from a more "evangelical" branch, my own baptism was somewhat suspect because there had been a separation of matter and form. (The words were said and then I was baptized, rather than them being said while I was baptized.) The bishop ended up saying it was okay. I wonder if the CDF is being a little overzealous here. The sacraments (especially baptism) are hard to break if they are done with the proper intent. The Catholic Church has historically recognized other forms which seem further away than just "I" to "we". For instance, it recognized "the servant of God is baptized" and possibly even "may you be baptized" (see https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#vi https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#vi). In fact it seems to border almost on superstition to belabor this point and is somewhat scandalous. But I'm episcopal and not Catholic, and not a theologian, so I don't really have any authority in the matter.

graderjs 5y ago
Interesting story about your baptism. Glad the bishop was cool with it. These sounds like good points about the language forms, and what you say also makes me think of: how does the Church handle baptism in languages that make no distinction between "I" and "we"...and if that's the case...how might that affect it in languages that do, regarding consistency? But this might be an unimportant thing to consider, I'm no expert ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

prirun 5y ago

Don't worry, an all-knowing God will get it.

bradwood 5y ago
But he might require you to sacrifice your first born at an altar to Him... You know... Just to show how pious you are first... Then he'll say "Stop, I was only kidding"... Funny guy.

WalterGR 5y ago

Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30348624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30348624 I’ll repeat my comment from there: Even worse, if one of the partners in a marriage was baptised by this priest, and the marriage was performed by the Catholic church, they may need to get re-married. “The error also means that because baptism is the first of the sacraments, some people will need to repeat other sacraments, according to the diocese webpage for frequently asked questions.” “According to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, there are seven sacraments in the Catholic church: baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, reconciliation, anointing the sick, marriage and holy orders.” https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/14/us/pastor-invalid-baptisms-resignation/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/14/us/pastor-invalid-baptisms-re... FAQ: https://dphx.org/valid-baptisms/#FAQ https://dphx.org/valid-baptisms/#FAQ

moistly 5y ago

So the folk who have died are S.O.L.? At best they’re in limbo or purgatory, at worst their illegitimate baptism places them in hell. Oopsy?

bradwood 5y ago
It's probably okay. When they get to the Pearly Gates St Peter should be in an understanding mood.

jqpabc123 5y ago

Really? At what point do we just label this superstitious nonsense what it really is --- a psychosis, a mental illness.