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I am legitimately not convinced he was attempting a coup. I am willing to admit I am wrong on this. I've read accounts from leftwing media sources and from thei

I am legitimately not convinced he was attempting a coup. I am willing to admit I am wrong on this. I've read accounts from leftwing media sources and from their wording it sounds like what Trump did was really bad. I've read accounts from rightwing sources and from their wording it doesn't sound bad at all. I have not done a great deal to try to reconcile the two and decide where the truth lies. Right now, I believe Trump legitimately thought the election was stolen and he wanted Pence to de-certify the election to give time for his lawsuits to go through the courts and show the evidence of the fraud. I absolutely do not think Trump was in any way encouraging people to riot in the capitol, much less stage a coup. I also believe that no such fraud was ever found, putting Trump in the wrong, most likely. If I am wrong, let me see the evidence.

fortuna86 5y ago
> I am legitimately not convinced he was attempting a coup I believe you. No one thinks their guy is the bad guy, it's human nature. > I believe Trump legitimately thought the election was stolen Again, this is your blind spot. You give a man who deserves no benefit of doubt infinite rope. But you are deluding yourself. You are to the right of your own party leadership on this matter: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/593339-mcconnell-breaks-with-rnc-jan-6-violent-insurrection https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/593339-mcconnell-breaks-... You don't refute any of the points, you merely state your opinion over and over "I don't think Trump meant to do anything wrong". Of course, intention cannot be known by anyone, so arguing in favor of what is unknowable brings this whole discussion to a standstill. Also, people still go to jail for crimes even if they aren't intended (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter). So I don't particularly care if Trump meant to organize a violent attack on the nation's capital at the exact time and place the certification was taking place, he still did it.
krapp 5y ago
> I absolutely do not think Trump was in any way encouraging people to riot in the capitol, much less stage a coup. I also believe that no such fraud was ever found. I think that depends on how you interpret a lot of statements made by Trump and others[0], for instance: “We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. … “You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. … “We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” If you're a Trump supporter, A patriot who believes in the revolutionary thesis of the Second Amendment and who's certain enough the election has been stolen to march on Washington, do these words encourage you to wait patiently and work within the system until the system is resolved, or do they communicate an urgent need for desperate action in a desperate time? What's certain - and we know this from their own testimony and communications - is that many of the rioters believed they were acting under Trump's orders[1]. Where did this belief come from? Was there simply no relationship between the words coming from Trump and other Republicans, and what Trump supporters were hearing? After four years of paranoid rhetoric amongst the right about vast leftist conspiracies, violent Marxists in the streets, vaccines as fascism and now the election being stolen right before their eyes? Four years of the populist gospel of victimhood and the need to exact revenge upon the elites? When you, as a Trump supporter, see the courts throwing out lawsuit after lawsuit, and Republican Congressman Louis Gohmert suggests on TV that people should "go out and be violent like antifa[2]" how do you react? On the spectrum of culpability from "Trump had absolutely nothing to do with anything" to "Trump literally planned it himself", I fall somewhere on the latter side. Where seems to depend on just how much Trumpists piss me off that day, I'll admit. Unfortunately, there's no smoking gun here. But there's also no way Trump didn't at least understand the atmosphere he was creating, or really discourage it (until well after the damage was done, which isn't a good look.) I think at the very least he was hoping the chaos, whatever form it took, would benefit him. [0]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/07/trump-incitement-inflammatory-rhetoric-capitol-riot https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/07/trump-incite... [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/capitol-rioters.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/capitol-rioters.html?a... [2]https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/louie-gohmert-suggests-violent-response-after-judge-rejects-election-suit-1109175/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/louie-go...
- PathOfEclipse 5y ago
  I can agree with you that trump probably was hoping for chaos of some sort though not explicitly asking for it or knowing what form the chaos would manifest. Thanks for the info!
  - fortuna86 5y ago
    For the record, the person that lights a small fire that turns into a forrest fire that burns down a town is still criminally libel for that initial spark.

fortuna86 5y ago

> I am legitimately not convinced he was attempting a coup I believe you. No one thinks their guy is the bad guy, it's human nature. > I believe Trump legitimately thought the election was stolen Again, this is your blind spot. You give a man who deserves no benefit of doubt infinite rope. But you are deluding yourself. You are to the right of your own party leadership on this matter: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/593339-mcconnell-breaks-with-rnc-jan-6-violent-insurrection https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/593339-mcconnell-breaks-... You don't refute any of the points, you merely state your opinion over and over "I don't think Trump meant to do anything wrong". Of course, intention cannot be known by anyone, so arguing in favor of what is unknowable brings this whole discussion to a standstill. Also, people still go to jail for crimes even if they aren't intended (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter). So I don't particularly care if Trump meant to organize a violent attack on the nation's capital at the exact time and place the certification was taking place, he still did it.

krapp 5y ago

> I absolutely do not think Trump was in any way encouraging people to riot in the capitol, much less stage a coup. I also believe that no such fraud was ever found. I think that depends on how you interpret a lot of statements made by Trump and others[0], for instance: “We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. … “You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. … “We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” If you're a Trump supporter, A patriot who believes in the revolutionary thesis of the Second Amendment and who's certain enough the election has been stolen to march on Washington, do these words encourage you to wait patiently and work within the system until the system is resolved, or do they communicate an urgent need for desperate action in a desperate time? What's certain - and we know this from their own testimony and communications - is that many of the rioters believed they were acting under Trump's orders[1]. Where did this belief come from? Was there simply no relationship between the words coming from Trump and other Republicans, and what Trump supporters were hearing? After four years of paranoid rhetoric amongst the right about vast leftist conspiracies, violent Marxists in the streets, vaccines as fascism and now the election being stolen right before their eyes? Four years of the populist gospel of victimhood and the need to exact revenge upon the elites? When you, as a Trump supporter, see the courts throwing out lawsuit after lawsuit, and Republican Congressman Louis Gohmert suggests on TV that people should "go out and be violent like antifa[2]" how do you react? On the spectrum of culpability from "Trump had absolutely nothing to do with anything" to "Trump literally planned it himself", I fall somewhere on the latter side. Where seems to depend on just how much Trumpists piss me off that day, I'll admit. Unfortunately, there's no smoking gun here. But there's also no way Trump didn't at least understand the atmosphere he was creating, or really discourage it (until well after the damage was done, which isn't a good look.) I think at the very least he was hoping the chaos, whatever form it took, would benefit him. [0]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/07/trump-incitement-inflammatory-rhetoric-capitol-riot https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/07/trump-incite... [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/capitol-rioters.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/capitol-rioters.html?a... [2]https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/louie-gohmert-suggests-violent-response-after-judge-rejects-election-suit-1109175/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/louie-go...

PathOfEclipse 5y ago
I can agree with you that trump probably was hoping for chaos of some sort though not explicitly asking for it or knowing what form the chaos would manifest. Thanks for the info!
- fortuna86 5y ago
  For the record, the person that lights a small fire that turns into a forrest fire that burns down a town is still criminally libel for that initial spark.