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Indeed. And alive immmediately before 9/11. And in the 90s, and the 80s. And the 70s. Jingoism subsided? Really? MAGA, America First, The BNP, Britain First. I

by feurio 5y ago

Indeed. And alive immmediately before 9/11. And in the 90s, and the 80s. And the 70s. Jingoism subsided? Really? MAGA, America First, The BNP, Britain First. Its really not gone away. And surely an increase in empathy, tolerance and understanding is to be welcomed. Unless your definition of woke is something else - no-one who is "anti-woke" will actually tell me what they think it means, just vague insinuations that "they do x" with no concrete examples.

inglor_cz 5y ago
Compared to levels of 2001-2003, the jingoism knob was definitely turned down. Even the popularity of "America first" is an indication thereof: people are no longer interested in forcible export of democracy and American power abroad. The Zeitgeist of the Bush era was one of empire building. The Zeitgeist of the current era is one of de-globalization. This is a huge difference. The former one was certainly more bloody. As to the woke, whose self-definitions you seem to be taking at face value. (Why?) Tell me how destroying an old man's career over a 33 years old article [1] can be labeled as an increase in empathy, tolerance and understanding. Or running a Twitter death gauntlet on a random Mexican driver [2]. These incidents embody "wokeness" to me, not a nicely sounding definition that was constructed to make the movement look better than it actually is. You seem to put a lot of trust into nicely sounding definitions. Always look at practice: do those people practice what they preach? Anyone can put together nicely sounding definitions and theories. In theory (= the Constitution), the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, where I grew up, had solid protections of personal freedoms and human rights. In practice, it didn't. It was a totalitarian state that just didn't want to state "we rule you and we will crush any dissent" in writing. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-resignation-idUSKBN24334J https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-resignation-idUSKB... [2] https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/ https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove...
- feurio 5y ago
  OK, I dont think that I concur with your taking of the temperature of jingoism - cerainly here, but different countries maybe. > As to the woke, whose self-definitions you seem to be taking at face value. (Why?) Because practially everyone I know, I would not consider "anti-woke". They are reasonable, not vindictive, anti-racist, feminist. I don't know if they would consider themselves woke, but certainly anyone who deploys woke as a pejorative would consider them woke. Woke has become the go-to term to demonise anything that you disagree with. the right wing headbangers in the UK will refer to our PM as woke. He really is not woke. At all. He literally has ministers out waging a "war on woke". It's a meaningless culture wars smoke screen to distract from the latest scandals and incompetence. If you are a comms director and you become the story, it's generally accepted that you resign. He wasn't fired. Given that the role is now vacant again for the fourth time in three years it suggests that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Given the 737 MAX crisis I would not be at all suprised if he was looking for a way out anyway. More sympathy for the driver. Seems like a conditional warning ("if you did do it for that reason we take a dim view - please don't do it again for any reason") would have been more than sufficient. Of course, I'm sure that you'll agree that better employment rights for US workers would help to prevent summary dismissals like this, which can happen any time for any reason.

by feurio 5y ago

inglor_cz 5y ago

Compared to levels of 2001-2003, the jingoism knob was definitely turned down. Even the popularity of "America first" is an indication thereof: people are no longer interested in forcible export of democracy and American power abroad. The Zeitgeist of the Bush era was one of empire building. The Zeitgeist of the current era is one of de-globalization. This is a huge difference. The former one was certainly more bloody. As to the woke, whose self-definitions you seem to be taking at face value. (Why?) Tell me how destroying an old man's career over a 33 years old article [1] can be labeled as an increase in empathy, tolerance and understanding. Or running a Twitter death gauntlet on a random Mexican driver [2]. These incidents embody "wokeness" to me, not a nicely sounding definition that was constructed to make the movement look better than it actually is. You seem to put a lot of trust into nicely sounding definitions. Always look at practice: do those people practice what they preach? Anyone can put together nicely sounding definitions and theories. In theory (= the Constitution), the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, where I grew up, had solid protections of personal freedoms and human rights. In practice, it didn't. It was a totalitarian state that just didn't want to state "we rule you and we will crush any dissent" in writing. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-resignation-idUSKBN24334J https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-resignation-idUSKB... [2] https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/ https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove...

feurio 5y ago
OK, I dont think that I concur with your taking of the temperature of jingoism - cerainly here, but different countries maybe. > As to the woke, whose self-definitions you seem to be taking at face value. (Why?) Because practially everyone I know, I would not consider "anti-woke". They are reasonable, not vindictive, anti-racist, feminist. I don't know if they would consider themselves woke, but certainly anyone who deploys woke as a pejorative would consider them woke. Woke has become the go-to term to demonise anything that you disagree with. the right wing headbangers in the UK will refer to our PM as woke. He really is not woke. At all. He literally has ministers out waging a "war on woke". It's a meaningless culture wars smoke screen to distract from the latest scandals and incompetence. If you are a comms director and you become the story, it's generally accepted that you resign. He wasn't fired. Given that the role is now vacant again for the fourth time in three years it suggests that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Given the 737 MAX crisis I would not be at all suprised if he was looking for a way out anyway. More sympathy for the driver. Seems like a conditional warning ("if you did do it for that reason we take a dim view - please don't do it again for any reason") would have been more than sufficient. Of course, I'm sure that you'll agree that better employment rights for US workers would help to prevent summary dismissals like this, which can happen any time for any reason.