5 ms·
> It's also the kind of thing that can open a backdoor for free will in a deterministic universe, your brain in this chaotic state might behave deterministicall
by awb 5y ago
> It's also the kind of thing that can open a backdoor for free will in a deterministic universe, your brain in this chaotic state might behave deterministically but the actual state would never be knowable with enough precision to predict the outcome of inputs for any amount of time (butterfly effect).
I think all it would mean is that the human brain is non-deterministic.
That’s different from free will though which is really an untestable, philosophical idea rather than a testable scientific hypothesis.
In any event, a random chaos state can be both non-deterministic and not intentional, or what many would call “free will”.
- darawk 5y ago> I think all it would mean is that the human brain is non-deterministic. Chaotic systems are still deterministic. They're just extremely sensitive to their initial conditions/inputs.
- eightysixfour 5y agoI always find it interesting drawing the determinism line on chaotic systems. For example, is a chaotic system that depends on initial conditions so precise that having adequate measurement to predict the outcome would violate the uncertainty principle still deterministic?
- azeirah 5y agoAs far as I understand it, determinism is about being able to predict the next state if you have all knowledge about a system. That we can't have all knowledge about most systems in the real world doesn't mean they're not deterministic. And who knows what kind of magical science we'll find in the future that turns everything we know about measurement upside down?
- kylebyproxy 5y ago> Chaotic systems are still deterministic. Is there some definitive proof for this, or are we just taking it as a useful assumption?
- sigstoat 5y agoit's the definition. "chaotic systems" aren't just... unpredictable things that we find laying around and say "yeah we'll call that chaotic because it looks like my kid's bedroom". they've got to satisfy that description.
- kylebyproxy 5y agoI'm asking if there's a proof for determinism itself. I was under the impression that we've only ever been inferring consistency is a property of reality. If you can QED me to a conclusion that yes, in fact, the sun will rise in the morning, I would genuinely find that useful.
- sigstoat 5y ago> I'm asking if there's a proof for determinism itself. sounds like you tried to take a flying leap away from the mathematically sound, and pedestrian statement of darawk into philosophy. you should warn people about that, so that people know not to bother. > If you can QED me to a conclusion that yes, in fact, the sun will rise in the morning, I would genuinely find that useful. if "gravity" isn't enough of an answer for you, then nothing can ever be.
- kylebyproxy 5y ago> darawk Nice word. Does it have a definition?
- r2_pilot 5y agoAppears to be a username in this thread
- csee 5y agoIf the underlying physics is deterministic, then a chaotic system (e.g. the Three Body Problem) is just a collection of deterministic parts interacting with each other, and is therefore itself deterministic. The overwhelming complexity and unpredictability we observe is just a commentary on our own ignorance and limitation as humans. There was never room for any non-deterministic thing to magic itself into the system at some point as the complexity and unpredictability of the system got bigger and bigger.
- whatshisface 5y agoIf the human mind is deterministic there's no free will. If it isn't there might be. That makes free will half of a scientific question - science can only rule it out.
- Kim_Bruning 5y agoOddly, nondeterministic systems tend to be statistically more predictable than certain classes of deterministic systems (to wit: a chaotic system is a type of deterministic system). So possibly the opposite is true, you need the human mind to be (mostly) deterministic for there to be free will.
- Buttons840 5y agoDeep philosophical discussions around free will can benefit from first defining what "free will" means.
- colechristensen 5y agoDeep philosophical discussions around free will often consist entirely of defining what "free will" means.
- alan-hn 5y agoI personally don't think that any macromolecular physical system can be entirely nondeterministic. We just don't understand how to make predictions for the system yet, but being beyond our understanding doesn't make it nondeterministic.