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> It is in all practical senses impossible for an iPhone or Mac user to change their search engine to a new search engine on Safari or at the iOS level. On my

> It is in all practical senses impossible for an iPhone or Mac user to change their search engine to a new search engine on Safari or at the iOS level. On my IOS device, under Settings -> Safari -> Search Engine, I have a drop down with options, including Bing and DuckDuckgo, but defaulted to google. On Macos, with Safari running, Safari -> Preferences… -> Search, Search Engine I have a drop down, defaulted to google, with Bing and DuckDuckgo amongst other choices. Agreed on google”s effort to get their search engine as the default. However I just don’t understand how changing search engine is impossible given what I’m seeing on my devices? Nor does it seem over the top onerous to my eyes.

jedwhite 5y ago
Yes, but you can't add a new search engine at all! So if a search engine isn't one of the tiny number of options in that dropdown, you can't change to it. That applies on both iOS and MacOS. And that option is used for the entire system-wide search, not just Safari. So here's a challenge, try adding a search engine not on that list. You can see the search engine I'm working on in my profile if you're interested (I don't want to hijack this thread with self-promotion). I challenge you to change to a new competitive option like it. You simply can't. That is a clear monopoly over distribution. On desktop in Chrome, as noted it is not something any typical consumer can do easily. But even if they could, Google does not allow you to set the New Tab to another search engine, even by setting the homepage to one. So every new tab opened on Chrome takes you back to Google search, even if a consumer figures out how to change their homepage. As for changing the nav bar search, no ordinary consumer is going to be able to work out how to change a search URL pattern. That is clearly intended to prevent consumers changing. So I stand by my point, especially on an iPhone, you simply cannot change your search engine to a new search engine like us. It is impossible.
- dwighteb 5y ago
  I see your point. I would have sworn that DuckDuckGo was added as a search entry when I installed that app on my ios device, however my memory is hazy from that long ago, so perhaps that search engine was added at a different point, like when it became big enough for Apple to notice them.
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    I'm a huge fan of DuckDuckGo. My understanding is that it took a significant amount of effort and public lobbying for them to get added to that list, and it was back in 2014 that was announced.
    - jaggs 5y ago
      I suspect the big problem is that even if your search engine succeeds, once you get enough traction you'll just sell up to Google and everything slots back to normal 'do some evil' mode.
      - jedwhite 5y ago
        I don't want to get too off-topic, but personally I can promise you we will never sell to Google. This problem is very personal. As well as being a programmer, I used to work as a journalist, and I've seen friends in media have their lives and businesses destroyed by Google's ad-tech. And I've seen the Internet turn from a wonderful thing to become a cesspool of content farms, clickbait and seo spam. I can't speak for other search startups, but we will never run ads or use ad-tech or sell user data or invade people's privacy. We're just two people. But we're two people on a mission.
  - donnythecroc 5y ago
    Duckduckgo uses Bing and they also pay millions to be included.
    - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
      We pay nothing so are not included. On the other hand we are happy to provide a one click search from our search engine or eight other search engines/services, currently from our web app [0]. One click for Google (if that's your thing), one click for Bing or Gigablast search engine results, one click for Brave and some of the many Bing and few Google syndicates - DuckDuckGo, Ecosia, Startpage. [0] https://blog.mojeek.com/2022/02/search-choices-enable-freedom-to-seek.html https://blog.mojeek.com/2022/02/search-choices-enable-freedo...
- null_object 5y ago
  > especially on an iPhone, you simply cannot change your search engine to a new search engine like us. It is impossible. See my post above about iCabMobile, where there are TWENTY-FIVE search engines to choose from. There are also other browsers than Safari and iCabMobile on iOS, many of which give alternatives to their search engine choices. Naturally if you think only users who choose the default browser are interesting as your market, I wonder if those users would take a chance on your alternative search engine?
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    I replied to your duplicate post separately, but it is worth noting that even if you install an alternative browsing App and use it, the iOS system search (swipe down from the top to access the search bar) is still using Google and Safari. And even if you were to use another browser like iCabMobile, it also simply does not let you add in a new search engine not already in its own options.
    - null_object 5y ago
      > And even if you were to use another browser like iCabMobile, it also simply does not let you add in a new search engine not already in its own options I duplicated my post because you so pervasively in this thread duplicated your inaccuracies. You are wrong about this, iCabMobile allows the user to very easily add search engines: Settings > Tools > Search Engines > Add Naturally I expect to be plentifully downvoted for this accurate information, just like pointing-out that iCabMobile has 25 search engines to was also extremely unpopular.
      - jedwhite 5y ago
        I may not be following you, but are you saying that when you change search engine in your App, it also changes the default search for iOS and Safari system-wide? Or you are just talking about within your iCabMobile App itself, like anyone can do in their own app? As far as I know, all the alternative browser and search Apps (including ours for example) are wrappers on top of Safari on iOS. And they are unable to change the iPhone's system-wide search or browser. That's the search engine accessed, for example, when a user swipes down on their iPhone home screen, and enters a query into the "Search" field that appears. Normally, that's Google and Safari at the iOS system-wide level. Or are you saying that you are able to change these including adding alternative search engines under iOS Settings > Safari > Search Engine? I'm curious how you're doing this if so, and I'm sure lots of other people would be too. My understanding is that App Store Apps or Extensions can not normally change the iPhone search engines, but I'd love to be wrong about that.
- figers 5y ago
  Its been a while but when you visited a search engine website it then showed up as an option, not sure which OS / browser that was on though
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    Firefox supports an open search standard which is a big improvement, so that's probably where you saw this. It provides an easier experience from the nav bar to add a new search engine to the browser. In practice, while it's a huge improvement, I've found talking with users that it's mostly helpful if someone technical is talking them through the change.
- ColinHayhurst 5y ago
  I concur. And would add that on Safari and iOS, it suits Google and Microsoft too keep others out; noting all options are Google, Bing or Bing sydnicates). And it suits Apple nicely; $15 bn from Google, pure margin. How much do they get from Microsft/syndicates? Meanwhile all search listed options in Chrome are Google or Microsoft (Bing and Bing syndicates). And, to complete all Edge options are Bing, Bing syndicates or Google. Disclosure: also alternative search engine CEO.
  - FabHK 5y ago
    Presumably you count DuckDuckGo as a "Bing syndicate". I think that doesn't do it justice - many of the things I like about DDG are specific to DDG, and I could not care less whether the underlying crawl was run by Bing or not.
    - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
      Yes, but I'm biased. Your perspective is as valid and I respect it. DDG does have some great features and we stand with them in fighting for user privacy. What benefits us all is a variety of different search engines and search services. It is the search engines that subtly determine our informational pathways, so variety is healthy. For one independent review of search engines and syndicates, including DDG see: https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexes.html https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexe...
      - jedwhite 5y ago
        100% agree. The more people working on this and building different features and trying different approaches the better. The more new search engines, the more everyone innovates, the better for the whole world. It is deeply unhealthy to have a single monopoly with its mono-search have 90%+ of the market. There are billions of search users with many different needs, and there is room for different approaches.
- daanlo 5y ago
  I fully understand your point and defaults are very strong. That being said, I try new search engines from time to time and always get back to google, because non of the others have worked for me (in a professional context). I probably do 200 searches per day and google is most likely to give me relevant info on my first query (maybe 80-90% success rate). All others I have tried have been around 40-50% win an avg. of 2-3 search queries to find my result. That is a huge daily time sync on 200 searches per day. I will also test your search engine. And before having tested it, I have some unsolicited advice ;) At least these are things that would make me switch: 1) you are strong in my vertical. 50% of my daily search queries are professional. Probably 10-20% are programming related. If you were better 20% better than google at delivering results for that subset, I would probably use you. 2) If you had very strong support for my locale. Based in Germany, 50% of my private searches are in German. Most search engines, apart from google, suck in German. My assumption is their market share is so small that they don‘t put effort into any language specific search syntax understanding. German or large language groups like Spanish, Hindi, French come to mind. 3) If you can‘t become a default search engine on safari, maybe you can role your own browser (chromium fork or something) where you are the default. You could package it as: MySearchEngine App. It is actually a fully functional browser, but users really use it because they want to use your search engine. That might give easier access than having to manually navigate to your website in safari. </ end of unsolicited advice />
  - masa331 5y ago
    Have you tried Kagi.com? I switched to it and i'm very happy even with searches in my native language for example
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    The ultimate test of any search engine is always the results. While the project I'm working on is definitely still an alpha, I'd love to chat with you when you try it out. I don't want to take the conversation here off-topic. To your general points though, there are definitely opportunities to provide better results within specialist areas of knowledge, and for local markets. I think most of the search startups are doing their own mobile app. On iOS, the system search and browser remains Google/Safari (and the App is essentially just a wrapper on Safari for browsing). But at least it is something. I think you'll see more people doing desktop apps, although the dominance of Google through Chromium forks for this isn't a coincidence. It feels like the bad old days of re-packaging Internet Explorer with a custom homepage all over again.
- deleted 5y ago
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- nefitty 5y ago
  I use my own server for search. I just had to add an OpenSearch xml file. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/OpenSearch https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/OpenSearch
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    The OpenSearch standard is great and definitely an improvement where it's supported, but unfortunately as far as I'm aware in most browsers that's limited to site-search (in website search after typing a url). It doesn't work at all on iOS. On Firefox it makes it easier to talk a non-technical user through how to change their default search engine, and at least they aren't entering search pattern strings into a settings field as with Chrome.
    - nefitty 5y ago
      I use it on iOS Chrome.
      - jedwhite 5y ago
        As far as I'm aware and the OpenSearch docs, support is limited to in-site searches on most platforms outside of Firefox (not changing default search option for example using Chrome on iOS). Would be really interested in the steps you followed if you're happy to share them.
        nefitty 5y ago
        For sure. I added this file at the top level, as opensearch.xml. Sorry if formatting is wrecked. <OpenSearchDescription xmlns="http://a9.com/-/spec/opensearch/1.1/" xmlns:moz="http://www.mozilla.org/2006/browser/search/" > <ShortName>My Search</ShortName> <Description>Personal Search</Description> <Url type="text/html" method="get" template="https://mysite.com/?q={searchTerms}" /> <Url type="application/rss+xml" indexOffset="0" rel="results" template="/results?query={searchTerms}" /> <Url type="application/json" rel="suggestions" template="/suggest?q={searchTerms}" /> <InputEncoding>UTF-8</InputEncoding> <Image height="32" width="32" type="image/x-icon"> https://yarnpkg.com/favicon.ico </Image> </OpenSearchDescription> In the head tag: <link rel="search" href="/opensearch.xml" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" title="My Search" /> I then went to my site on Chrome iOS and it showed up under Settings > Search Engine > Recently visited. I then selected it and now anything I put in my url bar gets sent to my server. It's pretty sick.
- shaky-carrousel 5y ago
  > So here's a challenge, try adding a search engine not on that list. Well, you can. I just tried it and works. Granted, you need a third party app, but it's doable.
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    I'd be interested in the steps you took. Third-party Apps on iOS can't change the Safari or system-wide options for search engines as far as I'm aware. Installing a third-party App just gives you a wrapper around Safari for browsing while you use that App only. If you swipe down on your home screen to use the system search, or open Safari itself, nothing has changed. I can ask you to install our App or another search provider's App, but it doesn't change your iPhone's search engine or add it to Safari.
    - fearoffish 5y ago
      Kagi search has an extension. Maybe you could do something similar. It’s on the iOS store under kagi-search-for-safari.
      - jedwhite 5y ago
        That's interesting. I didn't think an extension could change the search engines available under Settings > Safari > Search Engine on iOS from the defaults (Google, Bing, Yahoo, DDG, Ecosia), or change the system-wide search used. Do you see different options now under Settings for search engines and did it change your system-wide search too (i.e. swipe down on home screen and then use the built-in Search)?
        fearoffish 5y ago
        Swiping down doesn’t work, it’s in-browser only in the address bar. As for in safari, I don’t get options, but if the extension is enabled it redirects the search to Kagi.
        fearoffish 5y ago
- pkz 5y ago
  I tries you search engine with a few queries and I was pleasantly surprised! Keep up the good work!
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    I didn't want to take the discussion off topic but I appreciate that and thank you! Lots of work to do! Please reach out if you'd like to as well :)
- vanviegen 5y ago
  Your search engine doesn't seem to offer an OpenSearch description. Wouldn't adding one solve the problem for some browsers at least? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    Thanks, just to let you know, yes, it does have an opensearch description. But in practical terms that doesn't help much even if a startup search engine adds it. Unfortunately, while OpenSearch is great where it's supported, outside of Firefox, the only real support is for in-site-search on other platforms (where you type a site name and then a search string), and not for changing your browser search engine. And it doesn't work at all on iOS even for site search. So unfortunately it doesn't fix the problem of how a consumer can easily change their search engine to something new on Chrome or Safari or an iPhone. I don't want to sidetrack the discussion, but if you want to confirm the opensearch description, you can open our site in Firefox, then click the "..." in the browser address bar and then click "Install Andi Search". Or reach out and very happy to talk you through it.
    - ssvss 5y ago
      I am using firefox (windows 10), I don't see the "..." in the browser address bar. Edit: When I click the address bar, I see an small "A" icon in the bottom row. When I hower over it, it shows "install Andi search".
      - jedwhite 5y ago
        Depending on the platform, you might need to right-click on the Firefox browser address bar and choose the "Add search engine" option from the dropdown (where a website has it). Do you see an option to add a new search engine when you right-click the browser address bar at all? [Edit: just saw the edit that you found it - thanks again for looking around for it too!]
- RunSet 5y ago
  > Google does not allow you to set the New Tab to another search engine Firefox has removed the ability to set a default page for new tabs and requires users to install an extension to restore the functionality, which in fact provides degraded functionality. As originally implemented the new tab would load the new page instantly. With the extension, a new tab is created, focus is given to the URL bar and after a brief but noticeable pause, the chosen page loads.
- jaggs 5y ago
  You have a section in Andi Search which lets you try and set it as the default (in Firefox at least) but it doesn't work. Is that what you mean, or am I doing something wrong/weird? BTW I really like what you're doing, and I'll definitely like to set it as default in Firefox somehow if I could just to try it out. My first tests were surprisingly good, I didn't expect it to deliver results which are accurate and which appear to at least match DDG. Nice one. [slightly unusual page format on desktop though :)]
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    Thanks! I don't want to distract from the main topic too much but would love to chat with you if you're open to it. There's a thread below with @neffity and I made some changes (trying to get Chrome on iOS to use OpenSearch) and broke that for a little. Update is just deploying now. I sincerely appreciate the feedback and you having a look too! :)
- mark_l_watson 5y ago
  Hello Jed, that sucks. I understand that custom search engine exclusion is a financial decision by companies that can get away with almost whatever they want to do. For iPhone, iPad, and macOS, you could use Swift and SwiftUI to write a single search app for your service. Flutter is pretty good also, then you could cover Windows and Linux also.
- aj7 5y ago
  Go to search_engine.com in Safari. Share button. Add to Home Screen. This is not a bad solution; I appreciate your browser rage.
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    Adding a shortcut to a website to the home screen is a nice convenience. Unfortunately, it doesn't add it as a search engine to your iPhone search, or to Safari. Even with a PWA (progressive web app), the App is just a wrapper on Safari. For a startup like us, it is probably the best option currently available, and we've tried to make it a good experience. But it does suffer the same drawbacks as a regular App as a browser replacement. If you swipe down from the home screen and type something into your iPhone's search bar, you're still using Google and Safari.
- dapids 5y ago
  It takes approx. 5 seconds to add a new search engine to Safari on macOS. What?
  - jedwhite 5y ago
    That's simply not true. Even as a technical user who knows what you're doing, you get a hard-coded choice of exactly five - Google, Bing, Yahoo, DDG or Ecosia. You can't add new ones at all. If you wanted to add a new search engine (like the one I'm working on, or any other), there is no way to do it. But let's try it. Go to Safari > Preferences > Search and choose the "Search engine" dropdown, and you'll see you have a dropdown with only five options. Google reportedly pays $15B per year for that top spot.
    - kamokujin 5y ago
      A work around is to add a safari extension like "Keyword Search" and associate a key word to your search. Its nothing like setting a default search engine for a normal user, but atleast there is a way for the slightly more technical user. Though, I couldn't add a keyword to your site in firefox with its "Add a keyword" feature. Might be due to the javascript calling some url behind the screen.
nabla9 5y ago
Google pays Apple for the privilege to be the first. Another way to think it is that Google pays Apple, so that they don't create their own search engine.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  I actually don't think Apple could build a good search engine. They believe in privacy, and will be compared to engines that track you everywhere. Or, it might be possible. But their constraints will make it far harder to build even a comparable search.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
    Wouldn’t the search be like the old days of google before they personalised everything?
  - naravara 5y ago
    DDG is already a comparable privacy first search engine. Apple would just need to buy them in they cared, but instead they just promote them.
  - jmbwell 5y ago
    Apple is operating a search engine right under our noses, hiding behind Siri. Applebot is regularly crawling the web. They’re probably much further along toward a privacy-focused search product than any of us would know.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      I thought Siri's web results were returned from tour chosen search engine in settings. Does it use its own search?
      - jmbwell 5y ago
        "Web results" are. "Siri Suggested Websites" and "Siri Knowledge" are not — those are fed by Applebot. "Applebot is the web crawler for Apple. Products like Siri and Spotlight Suggestions use Applebot." — Apple's support document about Applebot.
ummonk 5y ago
The drop down options are limited though.
lanamo 5y ago
xSearch for Safari makes the search experience on the Apple ecosystem much better. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id1579902068 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id157990206... Makes switching search engines easy and you can use "bangs" like in DuckDuckGo to use other search engines within safari.

jedwhite 5y ago

Yes, but you can't add a new search engine at all! So if a search engine isn't one of the tiny number of options in that dropdown, you can't change to it. That applies on both iOS and MacOS. And that option is used for the entire system-wide search, not just Safari. So here's a challenge, try adding a search engine not on that list. You can see the search engine I'm working on in my profile if you're interested (I don't want to hijack this thread with self-promotion). I challenge you to change to a new competitive option like it. You simply can't. That is a clear monopoly over distribution. On desktop in Chrome, as noted it is not something any typical consumer can do easily. But even if they could, Google does not allow you to set the New Tab to another search engine, even by setting the homepage to one. So every new tab opened on Chrome takes you back to Google search, even if a consumer figures out how to change their homepage. As for changing the nav bar search, no ordinary consumer is going to be able to work out how to change a search URL pattern. That is clearly intended to prevent consumers changing. So I stand by my point, especially on an iPhone, you simply cannot change your search engine to a new search engine like us. It is impossible.

dwighteb 5y ago
I see your point. I would have sworn that DuckDuckGo was added as a search entry when I installed that app on my ios device, however my memory is hazy from that long ago, so perhaps that search engine was added at a different point, like when it became big enough for Apple to notice them.
- jedwhite 5y ago
  I'm a huge fan of DuckDuckGo. My understanding is that it took a significant amount of effort and public lobbying for them to get added to that list, and it was back in 2014 that was announced.
  - jaggs 5y ago
    I suspect the big problem is that even if your search engine succeeds, once you get enough traction you'll just sell up to Google and everything slots back to normal 'do some evil' mode.
    - jedwhite 5y ago
      I don't want to get too off-topic, but personally I can promise you we will never sell to Google. This problem is very personal. As well as being a programmer, I used to work as a journalist, and I've seen friends in media have their lives and businesses destroyed by Google's ad-tech. And I've seen the Internet turn from a wonderful thing to become a cesspool of content farms, clickbait and seo spam. I can't speak for other search startups, but we will never run ads or use ad-tech or sell user data or invade people's privacy. We're just two people. But we're two people on a mission.
- donnythecroc 5y ago
  Duckduckgo uses Bing and they also pay millions to be included.
  - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
    We pay nothing so are not included. On the other hand we are happy to provide a one click search from our search engine or eight other search engines/services, currently from our web app [0]. One click for Google (if that's your thing), one click for Bing or Gigablast search engine results, one click for Brave and some of the many Bing and few Google syndicates - DuckDuckGo, Ecosia, Startpage. [0] https://blog.mojeek.com/2022/02/search-choices-enable-freedom-to-seek.html https://blog.mojeek.com/2022/02/search-choices-enable-freedo...
null_object 5y ago
> especially on an iPhone, you simply cannot change your search engine to a new search engine like us. It is impossible. See my post above about iCabMobile, where there are TWENTY-FIVE search engines to choose from. There are also other browsers than Safari and iCabMobile on iOS, many of which give alternatives to their search engine choices. Naturally if you think only users who choose the default browser are interesting as your market, I wonder if those users would take a chance on your alternative search engine?
- jedwhite 5y ago
  I replied to your duplicate post separately, but it is worth noting that even if you install an alternative browsing App and use it, the iOS system search (swipe down from the top to access the search bar) is still using Google and Safari. And even if you were to use another browser like iCabMobile, it also simply does not let you add in a new search engine not already in its own options.
  - null_object 5y ago
    > And even if you were to use another browser like iCabMobile, it also simply does not let you add in a new search engine not already in its own options I duplicated my post because you so pervasively in this thread duplicated your inaccuracies. You are wrong about this, iCabMobile allows the user to very easily add search engines: Settings > Tools > Search Engines > Add Naturally I expect to be plentifully downvoted for this accurate information, just like pointing-out that iCabMobile has 25 search engines to was also extremely unpopular.
    - jedwhite 5y ago
      I may not be following you, but are you saying that when you change search engine in your App, it also changes the default search for iOS and Safari system-wide? Or you are just talking about within your iCabMobile App itself, like anyone can do in their own app? As far as I know, all the alternative browser and search Apps (including ours for example) are wrappers on top of Safari on iOS. And they are unable to change the iPhone's system-wide search or browser. That's the search engine accessed, for example, when a user swipes down on their iPhone home screen, and enters a query into the "Search" field that appears. Normally, that's Google and Safari at the iOS system-wide level. Or are you saying that you are able to change these including adding alternative search engines under iOS Settings > Safari > Search Engine? I'm curious how you're doing this if so, and I'm sure lots of other people would be too. My understanding is that App Store Apps or Extensions can not normally change the iPhone search engines, but I'd love to be wrong about that.
figers 5y ago
Its been a while but when you visited a search engine website it then showed up as an option, not sure which OS / browser that was on though
- jedwhite 5y ago
  Firefox supports an open search standard which is a big improvement, so that's probably where you saw this. It provides an easier experience from the nav bar to add a new search engine to the browser. In practice, while it's a huge improvement, I've found talking with users that it's mostly helpful if someone technical is talking them through the change.
ColinHayhurst 5y ago
I concur. And would add that on Safari and iOS, it suits Google and Microsoft too keep others out; noting all options are Google, Bing or Bing sydnicates). And it suits Apple nicely; $15 bn from Google, pure margin. How much do they get from Microsft/syndicates? Meanwhile all search listed options in Chrome are Google or Microsoft (Bing and Bing syndicates). And, to complete all Edge options are Bing, Bing syndicates or Google. Disclosure: also alternative search engine CEO.
- FabHK 5y ago
  Presumably you count DuckDuckGo as a "Bing syndicate". I think that doesn't do it justice - many of the things I like about DDG are specific to DDG, and I could not care less whether the underlying crawl was run by Bing or not.
  - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
    Yes, but I'm biased. Your perspective is as valid and I respect it. DDG does have some great features and we stand with them in fighting for user privacy. What benefits us all is a variety of different search engines and search services. It is the search engines that subtly determine our informational pathways, so variety is healthy. For one independent review of search engines and syndicates, including DDG see: https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexes.html https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexe...
    - jedwhite 5y ago
      100% agree. The more people working on this and building different features and trying different approaches the better. The more new search engines, the more everyone innovates, the better for the whole world. It is deeply unhealthy to have a single monopoly with its mono-search have 90%+ of the market. There are billions of search users with many different needs, and there is room for different approaches.
daanlo 5y ago
I fully understand your point and defaults are very strong. That being said, I try new search engines from time to time and always get back to google, because non of the others have worked for me (in a professional context). I probably do 200 searches per day and google is most likely to give me relevant info on my first query (maybe 80-90% success rate). All others I have tried have been around 40-50% win an avg. of 2-3 search queries to find my result. That is a huge daily time sync on 200 searches per day. I will also test your search engine. And before having tested it, I have some unsolicited advice ;) At least these are things that would make me switch: 1) you are strong in my vertical. 50% of my daily search queries are professional. Probably 10-20% are programming related. If you were better 20% better than google at delivering results for that subset, I would probably use you. 2) If you had very strong support for my locale. Based in Germany, 50% of my private searches are in German. Most search engines, apart from google, suck in German. My assumption is their market share is so small that they don‘t put effort into any language specific search syntax understanding. German or large language groups like Spanish, Hindi, French come to mind. 3) If you can‘t become a default search engine on safari, maybe you can role your own browser (chromium fork or something) where you are the default. You could package it as: MySearchEngine App. It is actually a fully functional browser, but users really use it because they want to use your search engine. That might give easier access than having to manually navigate to your website in safari. </ end of unsolicited advice />
- masa331 5y ago
  Have you tried Kagi.com? I switched to it and i'm very happy even with searches in my native language for example
- jedwhite 5y ago
  The ultimate test of any search engine is always the results. While the project I'm working on is definitely still an alpha, I'd love to chat with you when you try it out. I don't want to take the conversation here off-topic. To your general points though, there are definitely opportunities to provide better results within specialist areas of knowledge, and for local markets. I think most of the search startups are doing their own mobile app. On iOS, the system search and browser remains Google/Safari (and the App is essentially just a wrapper on Safari for browsing). But at least it is something. I think you'll see more people doing desktop apps, although the dominance of Google through Chromium forks for this isn't a coincidence. It feels like the bad old days of re-packaging Internet Explorer with a custom homepage all over again.
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nefitty 5y ago
I use my own server for search. I just had to add an OpenSearch xml file. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/OpenSearch https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/OpenSearch
- jedwhite 5y ago
  The OpenSearch standard is great and definitely an improvement where it's supported, but unfortunately as far as I'm aware in most browsers that's limited to site-search (in website search after typing a url). It doesn't work at all on iOS. On Firefox it makes it easier to talk a non-technical user through how to change their default search engine, and at least they aren't entering search pattern strings into a settings field as with Chrome.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    I use it on iOS Chrome.
    - jedwhite 5y ago
      As far as I'm aware and the OpenSearch docs, support is limited to in-site searches on most platforms outside of Firefox (not changing default search option for example using Chrome on iOS). Would be really interested in the steps you followed if you're happy to share them.
      - nefitty 5y ago
        For sure. I added this file at the top level, as opensearch.xml. Sorry if formatting is wrecked. <OpenSearchDescription xmlns="http://a9.com/-/spec/opensearch/1.1/" xmlns:moz="http://www.mozilla.org/2006/browser/search/" > <ShortName>My Search</ShortName> <Description>Personal Search</Description> <Url type="text/html" method="get" template="https://mysite.com/?q={searchTerms}" /> <Url type="application/rss+xml" indexOffset="0" rel="results" template="/results?query={searchTerms}" /> <Url type="application/json" rel="suggestions" template="/suggest?q={searchTerms}" /> <InputEncoding>UTF-8</InputEncoding> <Image height="32" width="32" type="image/x-icon"> https://yarnpkg.com/favicon.ico </Image> </OpenSearchDescription> In the head tag: <link rel="search" href="/opensearch.xml" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" title="My Search" /> I then went to my site on Chrome iOS and it showed up under Settings > Search Engine > Recently visited. I then selected it and now anything I put in my url bar gets sent to my server. It's pretty sick.
shaky-carrousel 5y ago
> So here's a challenge, try adding a search engine not on that list. Well, you can. I just tried it and works. Granted, you need a third party app, but it's doable.
- jedwhite 5y ago
  I'd be interested in the steps you took. Third-party Apps on iOS can't change the Safari or system-wide options for search engines as far as I'm aware. Installing a third-party App just gives you a wrapper around Safari for browsing while you use that App only. If you swipe down on your home screen to use the system search, or open Safari itself, nothing has changed. I can ask you to install our App or another search provider's App, but it doesn't change your iPhone's search engine or add it to Safari.
  - fearoffish 5y ago
    Kagi search has an extension. Maybe you could do something similar. It’s on the iOS store under kagi-search-for-safari.
    - jedwhite 5y ago
      That's interesting. I didn't think an extension could change the search engines available under Settings > Safari > Search Engine on iOS from the defaults (Google, Bing, Yahoo, DDG, Ecosia), or change the system-wide search used. Do you see different options now under Settings for search engines and did it change your system-wide search too (i.e. swipe down on home screen and then use the built-in Search)?
      - fearoffish 5y ago
        Swiping down doesn’t work, it’s in-browser only in the address bar. As for in safari, I don’t get options, but if the extension is enabled it redirects the search to Kagi.
      - fearoffish 5y ago
pkz 5y ago
I tries you search engine with a few queries and I was pleasantly surprised! Keep up the good work!
- jedwhite 5y ago
  I didn't want to take the discussion off topic but I appreciate that and thank you! Lots of work to do! Please reach out if you'd like to as well :)
vanviegen 5y ago
Your search engine doesn't seem to offer an OpenSearch description. Wouldn't adding one solve the problem for some browsers at least? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/
- jedwhite 5y ago
  Thanks, just to let you know, yes, it does have an opensearch description. But in practical terms that doesn't help much even if a startup search engine adds it. Unfortunately, while OpenSearch is great where it's supported, outside of Firefox, the only real support is for in-site-search on other platforms (where you type a site name and then a search string), and not for changing your browser search engine. And it doesn't work at all on iOS even for site search. So unfortunately it doesn't fix the problem of how a consumer can easily change their search engine to something new on Chrome or Safari or an iPhone. I don't want to sidetrack the discussion, but if you want to confirm the opensearch description, you can open our site in Firefox, then click the "..." in the browser address bar and then click "Install Andi Search". Or reach out and very happy to talk you through it.
  - ssvss 5y ago
    I am using firefox (windows 10), I don't see the "..." in the browser address bar. Edit: When I click the address bar, I see an small "A" icon in the bottom row. When I hower over it, it shows "install Andi search".
    - jedwhite 5y ago
      Depending on the platform, you might need to right-click on the Firefox browser address bar and choose the "Add search engine" option from the dropdown (where a website has it). Do you see an option to add a new search engine when you right-click the browser address bar at all? [Edit: just saw the edit that you found it - thanks again for looking around for it too!]
RunSet 5y ago
> Google does not allow you to set the New Tab to another search engine Firefox has removed the ability to set a default page for new tabs and requires users to install an extension to restore the functionality, which in fact provides degraded functionality. As originally implemented the new tab would load the new page instantly. With the extension, a new tab is created, focus is given to the URL bar and after a brief but noticeable pause, the chosen page loads.
jaggs 5y ago
You have a section in Andi Search which lets you try and set it as the default (in Firefox at least) but it doesn't work. Is that what you mean, or am I doing something wrong/weird? BTW I really like what you're doing, and I'll definitely like to set it as default in Firefox somehow if I could just to try it out. My first tests were surprisingly good, I didn't expect it to deliver results which are accurate and which appear to at least match DDG. Nice one. [slightly unusual page format on desktop though :)]
- jedwhite 5y ago
  Thanks! I don't want to distract from the main topic too much but would love to chat with you if you're open to it. There's a thread below with @neffity and I made some changes (trying to get Chrome on iOS to use OpenSearch) and broke that for a little. Update is just deploying now. I sincerely appreciate the feedback and you having a look too! :)
mark_l_watson 5y ago
Hello Jed, that sucks. I understand that custom search engine exclusion is a financial decision by companies that can get away with almost whatever they want to do. For iPhone, iPad, and macOS, you could use Swift and SwiftUI to write a single search app for your service. Flutter is pretty good also, then you could cover Windows and Linux also.
aj7 5y ago
Go to search_engine.com in Safari. Share button. Add to Home Screen. This is not a bad solution; I appreciate your browser rage.
- jedwhite 5y ago
  Adding a shortcut to a website to the home screen is a nice convenience. Unfortunately, it doesn't add it as a search engine to your iPhone search, or to Safari. Even with a PWA (progressive web app), the App is just a wrapper on Safari. For a startup like us, it is probably the best option currently available, and we've tried to make it a good experience. But it does suffer the same drawbacks as a regular App as a browser replacement. If you swipe down from the home screen and type something into your iPhone's search bar, you're still using Google and Safari.
dapids 5y ago
It takes approx. 5 seconds to add a new search engine to Safari on macOS. What?
- jedwhite 5y ago
  That's simply not true. Even as a technical user who knows what you're doing, you get a hard-coded choice of exactly five - Google, Bing, Yahoo, DDG or Ecosia. You can't add new ones at all. If you wanted to add a new search engine (like the one I'm working on, or any other), there is no way to do it. But let's try it. Go to Safari > Preferences > Search and choose the "Search engine" dropdown, and you'll see you have a dropdown with only five options. Google reportedly pays $15B per year for that top spot.
  - kamokujin 5y ago
    A work around is to add a safari extension like "Keyword Search" and associate a key word to your search. Its nothing like setting a default search engine for a normal user, but atleast there is a way for the slightly more technical user. Though, I couldn't add a keyword to your site in firefox with its "Add a keyword" feature. Might be due to the javascript calling some url behind the screen.

nabla9 5y ago

Google pays Apple for the privilege to be the first. Another way to think it is that Google pays Apple, so that they don't create their own search engine.

HWR_14 5y ago
I actually don't think Apple could build a good search engine. They believe in privacy, and will be compared to engines that track you everywhere. Or, it might be possible. But their constraints will make it far harder to build even a comparable search.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  Wouldn’t the search be like the old days of google before they personalised everything?
- naravara 5y ago
  DDG is already a comparable privacy first search engine. Apple would just need to buy them in they cared, but instead they just promote them.
- jmbwell 5y ago
  Apple is operating a search engine right under our noses, hiding behind Siri. Applebot is regularly crawling the web. They’re probably much further along toward a privacy-focused search product than any of us would know.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I thought Siri's web results were returned from tour chosen search engine in settings. Does it use its own search?
    - jmbwell 5y ago
      "Web results" are. "Siri Suggested Websites" and "Siri Knowledge" are not — those are fed by Applebot. "Applebot is the web crawler for Apple. Products like Siri and Spotlight Suggestions use Applebot." — Apple's support document about Applebot.

ummonk 5y ago

The drop down options are limited though.

lanamo 5y ago

xSearch for Safari makes the search experience on the Apple ecosystem much better. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id1579902068 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id157990206... Makes switching search engines easy and you can use "bangs" like in DuckDuckGo to use other search engines within safari.