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The problem in those examples is not rejecting the premise, it's doing so in a dismissive, arrogant way. I've had customers, friends, and family members tell m

The problem in those examples is not rejecting the premise, it's doing so in a dismissive, arrogant way. I've had customers, friends, and family members tell me time and time again that they can't do some common, everyday thing on their computers because it's "not compatible", or it "won't let them", or it "doesn't work". If they're wrong, I show them where they're wrong, what they need to do to fix the problem and avoid similar ones in the future. No need to be dismissive, or berate them for not knowing something. It ends up being a nice "today I learned" situation for them, and we all win.

maximus-decimus 5y ago
I agree it's the right thing to do, but what did you win in that situation?
- dudeman13 5y ago
  The memories made along the way, obviously. Never helping anyone with technical stuff unless you're getting paid (or whatever similar thing you can think of) is over-correcting for the doormats that can't say no
  - nomel 5y ago
    I stopped helping people, in general, when there were several instances of people telling me that whatever I did the last time I touched their computer caused some random problem 6 month later. That, and it seemed that people were getting upset when I would show them how to do things, within a couple of minutes (from just knowing where to navigate), that they had been struggling with for hours, or that they were, in fact, typing their password wrong. Maybe they weren't upset with me, but it was usually a negative experience for me, and it slowly chipped away at the glee I used to have for helping people.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  A better assessment of the situation. Case 1: the person learned and became more autonomous. Fewer questions like this will be asked in the future. You have developed good will. Case 2: the person expects someone else to do their work. That won't fly for long with me. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, and I will react. Friends and family members can land on the no-contact list. Employees can get fired. Assume the best, but always prepare for the worst.
  - maximus-decimus 5y ago
    Or they're like my father and can't remember things long term anymore because he's too old. I have to walk him through how to join a Discord server every single time I want to use it with him. He used to be good at this stuff, but I guess IQ studies are right that crystallized intelligence (which includes long term memory) goes down after 60.
- gatonegro 5y ago
  I enjoy teaching people new things in general, but what I win specifically depends on the situation. With friends and family, it's the personal satisfaction of helping someone I care about. With customers there's the added benefit of improving business relationships and building trust. If someone contacts me with a question, and I withhold the answer until they pay me, they're gonna feel cheated when they realise the answer was pretty straightforward. It doesn't matter if, technically, I'm providing a service and I'm within my rights to ask for compensation. That customer is going to hesitate to return in the future, because they now feel I just care about their money. Being open, transparent, and helpful has the opposite effect, in my experience. The customer feels at ease with me, they trust my judgment, know that I'm looking out for them, and so are happy to return to me when they need something, and pay for the job.
drdaeman 5y ago
Honestly, the world would be a much more amazing place if it would be taught in schools that just "it doesn't work" does not convey any meaningful information. I don't mean this as complaint, just saying that it's so extremely common and so simple it can be a part of curriculum or a social campaign that has potential to save a lot of human-hours (and lots of frustration) just by spreading a simple meme/idea. Also, I can't say I perceive the dismissal from the quote alone. Those two short sentences feel like a very brief excerpt from beginning of a conversation so it's hard to gauge, but I feel that it's an exclamation of surprise that's non-committal and lacking an explicit offer to proceed with details, rather than dismissive (or worse). Circumstances, tone, body language, relationship and other things may make it vary, of course. Can't say it's arrogant either, "no way, it must work" is a legit exclamation that doesn't imply incompetence (unless, again, tone etc). I'd say it's just passive, not taking any initiative to troubleshoot and communicating just the assurance that the problem must be solvable, then bouncing back to the inquirer. In my understanding, it's more of a lazy/not being in the mood, not dismissive (and I'd have a really hard time trying to call it "toxic").
- gatonegro 5y ago
  > Honestly, the world would be a much more amazing place if it would be taught in schools that just "it doesn't work" does not convey any meaningful information. Couldn't agree more. My first step when troubleshooting anything for someone else is to extract as much information as possible to understand what I'm dealing with. Having that information from the start would save me a lot of time. >I can't say I perceive the dismissal from the quote alone. True, the quote alone is not necessarily dismissive or arrogant, and your interpretation could very well be correct. I'm assuming it was dismissive because the author seems troubled by his own response, which he interprets as "I just told him that he's wrong and he doesn't know what he's doing". That's where my interpretation comes from.
  - drdaeman 5y ago
    Haha, agreed on both points :) A bit off-topic but I've actually got an inverse problem... Before contacting support I'm trying to collect as much diagnostics as possible, so my first message tends to be a long detailed list of what's the problem, what I did, and what possibly useful (to best of my awareness) supplementary diagnostics I've already performed. This frequently confuses first-tier support folks who're used to people reaching out with mere "nothing works pls help!!1one" and going through checklists.

maximus-decimus 5y ago

I agree it's the right thing to do, but what did you win in that situation?

dudeman13 5y ago
The memories made along the way, obviously. Never helping anyone with technical stuff unless you're getting paid (or whatever similar thing you can think of) is over-correcting for the doormats that can't say no
- nomel 5y ago
  I stopped helping people, in general, when there were several instances of people telling me that whatever I did the last time I touched their computer caused some random problem 6 month later. That, and it seemed that people were getting upset when I would show them how to do things, within a couple of minutes (from just knowing where to navigate), that they had been struggling with for hours, or that they were, in fact, typing their password wrong. Maybe they weren't upset with me, but it was usually a negative experience for me, and it slowly chipped away at the glee I used to have for helping people.
csdvrx 5y ago
A better assessment of the situation. Case 1: the person learned and became more autonomous. Fewer questions like this will be asked in the future. You have developed good will. Case 2: the person expects someone else to do their work. That won't fly for long with me. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, and I will react. Friends and family members can land on the no-contact list. Employees can get fired. Assume the best, but always prepare for the worst.
- maximus-decimus 5y ago
  Or they're like my father and can't remember things long term anymore because he's too old. I have to walk him through how to join a Discord server every single time I want to use it with him. He used to be good at this stuff, but I guess IQ studies are right that crystallized intelligence (which includes long term memory) goes down after 60.
gatonegro 5y ago
I enjoy teaching people new things in general, but what I win specifically depends on the situation. With friends and family, it's the personal satisfaction of helping someone I care about. With customers there's the added benefit of improving business relationships and building trust. If someone contacts me with a question, and I withhold the answer until they pay me, they're gonna feel cheated when they realise the answer was pretty straightforward. It doesn't matter if, technically, I'm providing a service and I'm within my rights to ask for compensation. That customer is going to hesitate to return in the future, because they now feel I just care about their money. Being open, transparent, and helpful has the opposite effect, in my experience. The customer feels at ease with me, they trust my judgment, know that I'm looking out for them, and so are happy to return to me when they need something, and pay for the job.

drdaeman 5y ago

Honestly, the world would be a much more amazing place if it would be taught in schools that just "it doesn't work" does not convey any meaningful information. I don't mean this as complaint, just saying that it's so extremely common and so simple it can be a part of curriculum or a social campaign that has potential to save a lot of human-hours (and lots of frustration) just by spreading a simple meme/idea. Also, I can't say I perceive the dismissal from the quote alone. Those two short sentences feel like a very brief excerpt from beginning of a conversation so it's hard to gauge, but I feel that it's an exclamation of surprise that's non-committal and lacking an explicit offer to proceed with details, rather than dismissive (or worse). Circumstances, tone, body language, relationship and other things may make it vary, of course. Can't say it's arrogant either, "no way, it must work" is a legit exclamation that doesn't imply incompetence (unless, again, tone etc). I'd say it's just passive, not taking any initiative to troubleshoot and communicating just the assurance that the problem must be solvable, then bouncing back to the inquirer. In my understanding, it's more of a lazy/not being in the mood, not dismissive (and I'd have a really hard time trying to call it "toxic").

gatonegro 5y ago
> Honestly, the world would be a much more amazing place if it would be taught in schools that just "it doesn't work" does not convey any meaningful information. Couldn't agree more. My first step when troubleshooting anything for someone else is to extract as much information as possible to understand what I'm dealing with. Having that information from the start would save me a lot of time. >I can't say I perceive the dismissal from the quote alone. True, the quote alone is not necessarily dismissive or arrogant, and your interpretation could very well be correct. I'm assuming it was dismissive because the author seems troubled by his own response, which he interprets as "I just told him that he's wrong and he doesn't know what he's doing". That's where my interpretation comes from.
- drdaeman 5y ago
  Haha, agreed on both points :) A bit off-topic but I've actually got an inverse problem... Before contacting support I'm trying to collect as much diagnostics as possible, so my first message tends to be a long detailed list of what's the problem, what I did, and what possibly useful (to best of my awareness) supplementary diagnostics I've already performed. This frequently confuses first-tier support folks who're used to people reaching out with mere "nothing works pls help!!1one" and going through checklists.