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"My dad told me that he wants to dabble in programming, but MySQL isn’t compatible with his laptop. My response? "Yeah there’s no way that’s true. MySQL will wo

"My dad told me that he wants to dabble in programming, but MySQL isn’t compatible with his laptop. My response? "Yeah there’s no way that’s true. MySQL will work on anything." Instead of taking a look at this laptop and working on the problem with him, I just told him that he's wrong and he doesn't know what he's doing (basically)." I catch myself doing this, without realizing it far too often. It's good to catch yourself and try to change.

jstrong 5y ago
the reaction I had was, don't speak to your Dad with the same tone you would use in a HN thread.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  why speak to anyone that way at all?
  - fortuna86 5y ago
    Exactly.
collegeburner 5y ago
Same tbh, this article made me realize I do it lots. But also did it since way back before I started reading HN.
gatonegro 5y ago
The problem in those examples is not rejecting the premise, it's doing so in a dismissive, arrogant way. I've had customers, friends, and family members tell me time and time again that they can't do some common, everyday thing on their computers because it's "not compatible", or it "won't let them", or it "doesn't work". If they're wrong, I show them where they're wrong, what they need to do to fix the problem and avoid similar ones in the future. No need to be dismissive, or berate them for not knowing something. It ends up being a nice "today I learned" situation for them, and we all win.
- maximus-decimus 5y ago
  I agree it's the right thing to do, but what did you win in that situation?
  - dudeman13 5y ago
    The memories made along the way, obviously. Never helping anyone with technical stuff unless you're getting paid (or whatever similar thing you can think of) is over-correcting for the doormats that can't say no
    - nomel 5y ago
      I stopped helping people, in general, when there were several instances of people telling me that whatever I did the last time I touched their computer caused some random problem 6 month later. That, and it seemed that people were getting upset when I would show them how to do things, within a couple of minutes (from just knowing where to navigate), that they had been struggling with for hours, or that they were, in fact, typing their password wrong. Maybe they weren't upset with me, but it was usually a negative experience for me, and it slowly chipped away at the glee I used to have for helping people.
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    A better assessment of the situation. Case 1: the person learned and became more autonomous. Fewer questions like this will be asked in the future. You have developed good will. Case 2: the person expects someone else to do their work. That won't fly for long with me. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, and I will react. Friends and family members can land on the no-contact list. Employees can get fired. Assume the best, but always prepare for the worst.
    - maximus-decimus 5y ago
      Or they're like my father and can't remember things long term anymore because he's too old. I have to walk him through how to join a Discord server every single time I want to use it with him. He used to be good at this stuff, but I guess IQ studies are right that crystallized intelligence (which includes long term memory) goes down after 60.
commandlinefan 5y ago
I try to shoot for something like "what was the error message you got?" or something at least moderately helpful like that.
godshatter 5y ago
It's the type of response a younger me would have said before I found out how wrong I can be even on subjects I think I know a lot about. My response now to such a question would be "That's weird, mySQL should work on all laptops. Let me take a look." From that point on I'm expecting it to be an error the person didn't understand, but I'm open to the idea that it might be a failure of their install script due to an odd configuration of the laptop, or even a symptom of another problem somewhere else, such as limited disk space, incorrectly installed drivers, or even a hardware issue.
- thetallstick 5y ago
  Exactly. It's entirely possible that it's correct depending on the specifics. Say for example one is trying to install MySQL 8.0 on a laptop with Catalina, which is still supported by Apple and getting security updates. This is actually unsupported and won't work. A somewhat unlikely situation but definitely not impossible. https://www.mysql.com/support/supportedplatforms/database.html https://www.mysql.com/support/supportedplatforms/database.ht...
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  > Let me take a look Exactly what the crafty older person wanted. Get you to do the work. "It doesn't work on my computer" or some other claim of trouble or ignorance is an easy way to trick a smart energetic young person to do something for you. Young smart people don't like to say "I don't know how" or "I can't get it to work." An older person will say that without hesitation if it will prompt someone else to do something that he doesn't want to do himself.
  - zarmin 5y ago
    >he doesn't want to do himself. "want"?
  - godshatter 5y ago
    My help comes at a price; they are going to sit there with me and listen to me blather on about what I'm looking at and what I find and what the solution was :)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mrtranscendence 5y ago
Sometimes I wish I were a little more like that. Instead I agonize over wording so I don't sound impolite / stupid and often choose to say nothing, even where my input might be useful. I guess there are worse things.
zozbot234 5y ago
That's a really unhelpful response, because it just seeks to deny what that user has just experienced! A better approach is to say that MySQL just being incompatible with stuff is not something that's supposed to happen, but as part of asking for clarification on how the supposed incompatibility came about (or even simply as offering to look into it, if appropriate), so as to helpfully root-cause and troubleshoot the issue. The basic facts you're relying on are exactly the same, but the underlying attitude could not be more different!
munchbunny 5y ago
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to maintain the capacity to be surprised. And they didn't mean maintaining the capacity to be surprised by someone exceeding expectations, but rather being surprised that the facts are not at all what I currently think they are.
pessimizer 5y ago
I don't even understand the premise. My answer would be "There's no chance it's not compatible with your laptop. Tell me what happened." If I wasn't ready to argue, I wouldn't have said anything. Arguing in this case means to troubleshoot with him. Sometimes I think that other people think the purpose of argument is to hurt people. The purpose of argument (for me) is to make the people who are arguing smarter than they were before the argument. I don't get pleasure out of hurting my father or showing him up - I like my father. If anything, I want to make him feel smarter than he is, and I hope he feels the same about me. edit: Also, it may turn out this is a weird corner-case and MySQL is somehow incompatible with his laptop. I'm not a MySQL scientist. After finding that out, though, I'm a tiny bit closer to being one.
- drdaeman 5y ago
  This. I don't get it either. In my view, the "no way, it must work" is a non-optimal but perfectly valid conversation starter (please explain me why not if I'm wrong). As long as that's not the whole conversation (which would mean there are way worse problems than lack of explicit inquiry in that response) and there's at some sort of follow-up from either party, I don't really see the problem here. (Disclaimer: I'm explicitly not thinking up circumstances, tone, gestures or anything else not included in that short snippet. Obviously. It's well possible same exact words spoken in different contexts or with different tone or body language may have quite opposite meanings.) Yes, there are better responses. But it's definitely not a "well, that sucks and you're wrong, go try some more" either.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I think the issue is how people approach the purpose of conversation. Many internet forum conversations take the form of arguing or debate. That is to say, the goal is getting to the bottom of a dispute showing someone that they are wrong (or learning that you are). People who do this often fall into the habit of defaulting to this mindset and goal in conversations where this is not the purpose. "no way, it must work" is a non-optimal but perfectly valid conversation starter. The problem is when there isnt follow up on the real point of the conversation (helping dad), because they treated the interaction as an argument to be won. >My dad told me that he wants to dabble in programming, but MySQL isn’t compatible with his laptop. My response? "Yeah there’s no way that’s true. MySQL will work on anything." Instead of taking a look at this laptop and working on the problem with him, I just told him that he's wrong and he doesn't know what he's doing (basically). The other example is even more telling: >my ex-girlfriend once told me that hospitals can’t require their staff to wear N95 masks at all times -- only regular masks. I immediately said "I don’t believe that. They can probably do whatever they want." Instead of being empathetic toward a nurse after a 12-hour shift, I was more concerned over hospital policy. The ex-girlfirend isnt looking for a spirited argument or debate after a long day. They dont care about who is right or wrong, or getting to the factual bottom of things. The author is dragging this mindset into a conversation where it is unwanted and doesn't belong.
xupybd 5y ago
This is typical programmer behavior. We end up in tech because we have more interest in thing than people. Empathy is not as developed as technical aptitude. I don't think it's a result of an online forum. Perhaps gathering with like minded people doesn't help but the problem goes deeper. Ultimately this sort of issue is about personal development. I say this as someone with plenty to work on myself. Use whatever strategies you think will result in the personal growth you desire. One strategy might be to avoid HN. However HN is not the problem you are. Taking responsibility will help you grow. You're influenced by your environment but you're responsible for how you respond to your environment. You always have a choice.
- achillesheels 5y ago
  Picking up feminine hobbies definitely balances out the need for constant mathematically rigorous accuracy. It softens the mind to enjoy the ride ;)
thxCronyCap 5y ago
But you’re right. Getting it to work is a Google search. If people want to collaborate, sure. I play 3 instruments, have stripped multiple cars to the frame, and rebuilt them, grown food, cooked everything. Lets collaborate on something worth connecting over. Please don’t make me collaborate over copy-pasting a bash script or a one line Docker command. I find those issues have nothing to do with the complexity of figuring it out but belief in division of labor. A sad, functionally fixed idea of what a person can do.
allenu 5y ago
I've noticed myself doing this in the last year or so. I've done it all my life, I'm sure, but it's the first time I really recognized the behavior. I wish I had caught it sooner because it definitely comes across as rude and a bit condescending. I think for so many of us, we desire to be correct, or to correct people or the world, so much that we miss out on the true "signal" someone is sending us with their message. In this case, the author's dad wanting help in getting into programming. I don't know if it's 100% true, but for me it feels like correcting people is partly wanting validation that I'm smart or know things. It's sort of performative, and can be very selfish.
aksss 5y ago
“Congrats, your first lesson in programming is troubleshooting a MySQL installation”. I would help him logically troubleshoot, and understand how to enjoy* the problem rather than be frustrated by it, but no way would I do it for him. He’ll have many harder problems soon enough. Make it a teachable moment. * I’m not saying it will always be enjoyable - nothing sucks more than things that should work but don’t when you’re on a schedule, but if it’s your first foray into taking technical “ownership” of your system, ya better learn to be interested in the new problems, understanding the clockworks, and learning to think as the machine does.
ksec 5y ago
You know, I think that is not toxic, and I would argue it is not smart or dumb ( so to speak ) as the author tries to put it. It is simply youth and inexperience, or age and wisdom depending on the situation and how you view it. And that is a problem in online discussion because I dont know people's age. ( And that is going to get drawn into ageism discussions but let's ignore that for now ) If I know you are only 20ish. My first instinct wouldn't be try and correct you it "really" isn't working. It is to convince you to take a look. And give you directions. You cant give people answer to questions or problems they have. They have to figure it out the answer themselves. The experience of real learning. And online discussions misses a lot of these context. Or at least very hard to do it correctly. You should, in most cases grown out of it in your 30s, or about 10 years after you start working in the society. And laugh about the stupidity of it in your 40s or 50s. My biggest concern is somehow there are increasingly number of people, especially in tech ( I have no idea why ) that dont grown out of it.
karmakaze 5y ago
I recognize myself in this story, but I wouldn't say that I mean to be mean or dismissive or superior. Usually it's that I fall into the trap of being 'too literal'. We spend all day being very precise about the conditions and cases where we are making changes, amendments, or extending capabilities. It drives me crazy when people won't just get to the point of the story or ask that can be scoped-out if-and-as necessary. I'm not talking about interacting with inexperienced people either, they're otherwise very intelligent and articulate but have a way of speaking that seems all so inefficient or ineffective, often adding lots of emotional embellishments that don't change the problem statement. Now, I'm not usually as unaware of insensitive as that description may sound, but you may be able to see some truth in the patterns. [I kind-of feel like I'm on a rant, so I'll add this too. The worst is when engineers at a meeting debate the 'root cause' theorizing all the permutations and possibilities to identify the correct one, taking as long as that takes. Often a simple search through the source-code or log files would have narrowed it down to but a few to easily verify--but they'd rather be playing RCA golf out loud.]
torstenvl 5y ago
I struggle with understanding this viewpoint. I don't think the son is being harsh or dismissive, in fact it strikes me as utterly guileless. He has a reaction . o O (That can't be right...) and voices it without artifice or manipulation. On the other hand, the father presumably knows that the son is technically inclined, but dismisses his expertise out of hand. He's struggling, but he doesn't say "I'm struggling getting this to work." The author presumes that the father wants him to help, and I defer to him on that, but the father doesn't ask for help. Instead he stakes out an extreme position (it's incompatible!). In some cases, people do this in an intentionally manipulative way! (See comment in this thread about the timeless technique of confidently stating a wrong answer to goad people into jumping in.) I don't know the author or his father, so I don't know what their actual intentions or interactions are. Please don't read my comment as impugning them or their motives in any way. But the hypothetical situation as presented does not lead me to the conclusions that I think the author intends readers to reach.

jstrong 5y ago

the reaction I had was, don't speak to your Dad with the same tone you would use in a HN thread.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
why speak to anyone that way at all?
- fortuna86 5y ago
  Exactly.

collegeburner 5y ago

Same tbh, this article made me realize I do it lots. But also did it since way back before I started reading HN.

gatonegro 5y ago

The problem in those examples is not rejecting the premise, it's doing so in a dismissive, arrogant way. I've had customers, friends, and family members tell me time and time again that they can't do some common, everyday thing on their computers because it's "not compatible", or it "won't let them", or it "doesn't work". If they're wrong, I show them where they're wrong, what they need to do to fix the problem and avoid similar ones in the future. No need to be dismissive, or berate them for not knowing something. It ends up being a nice "today I learned" situation for them, and we all win.

maximus-decimus 5y ago
I agree it's the right thing to do, but what did you win in that situation?
- dudeman13 5y ago
  The memories made along the way, obviously. Never helping anyone with technical stuff unless you're getting paid (or whatever similar thing you can think of) is over-correcting for the doormats that can't say no
  - nomel 5y ago
    I stopped helping people, in general, when there were several instances of people telling me that whatever I did the last time I touched their computer caused some random problem 6 month later. That, and it seemed that people were getting upset when I would show them how to do things, within a couple of minutes (from just knowing where to navigate), that they had been struggling with for hours, or that they were, in fact, typing their password wrong. Maybe they weren't upset with me, but it was usually a negative experience for me, and it slowly chipped away at the glee I used to have for helping people.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  A better assessment of the situation. Case 1: the person learned and became more autonomous. Fewer questions like this will be asked in the future. You have developed good will. Case 2: the person expects someone else to do their work. That won't fly for long with me. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, and I will react. Friends and family members can land on the no-contact list. Employees can get fired. Assume the best, but always prepare for the worst.
  - maximus-decimus 5y ago
    Or they're like my father and can't remember things long term anymore because he's too old. I have to walk him through how to join a Discord server every single time I want to use it with him. He used to be good at this stuff, but I guess IQ studies are right that crystallized intelligence (which includes long term memory) goes down after 60.

commandlinefan 5y ago

I try to shoot for something like "what was the error message you got?" or something at least moderately helpful like that.

godshatter 5y ago

It's the type of response a younger me would have said before I found out how wrong I can be even on subjects I think I know a lot about. My response now to such a question would be "That's weird, mySQL should work on all laptops. Let me take a look." From that point on I'm expecting it to be an error the person didn't understand, but I'm open to the idea that it might be a failure of their install script due to an odd configuration of the laptop, or even a symptom of another problem somewhere else, such as limited disk space, incorrectly installed drivers, or even a hardware issue.

thetallstick 5y ago
Exactly. It's entirely possible that it's correct depending on the specifics. Say for example one is trying to install MySQL 8.0 on a laptop with Catalina, which is still supported by Apple and getting security updates. This is actually unsupported and won't work. A somewhat unlikely situation but definitely not impossible. https://www.mysql.com/support/supportedplatforms/database.html https://www.mysql.com/support/supportedplatforms/database.ht...
throwawayboise 5y ago
> Let me take a look Exactly what the crafty older person wanted. Get you to do the work. "It doesn't work on my computer" or some other claim of trouble or ignorance is an easy way to trick a smart energetic young person to do something for you. Young smart people don't like to say "I don't know how" or "I can't get it to work." An older person will say that without hesitation if it will prompt someone else to do something that he doesn't want to do himself.
- zarmin 5y ago
  >he doesn't want to do himself. "want"?
- godshatter 5y ago
  My help comes at a price; they are going to sit there with me and listen to me blather on about what I'm looking at and what I find and what the solution was :)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mrtranscendence 5y ago

Sometimes I wish I were a little more like that. Instead I agonize over wording so I don't sound impolite / stupid and often choose to say nothing, even where my input might be useful. I guess there are worse things.

zozbot234 5y ago

That's a really unhelpful response, because it just seeks to deny what that user has just experienced! A better approach is to say that MySQL just being incompatible with stuff is not something that's supposed to happen, but as part of asking for clarification on how the supposed incompatibility came about (or even simply as offering to look into it, if appropriate), so as to helpfully root-cause and troubleshoot the issue. The basic facts you're relying on are exactly the same, but the underlying attitude could not be more different!

munchbunny 5y ago

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to maintain the capacity to be surprised. And they didn't mean maintaining the capacity to be surprised by someone exceeding expectations, but rather being surprised that the facts are not at all what I currently think they are.

pessimizer 5y ago

I don't even understand the premise. My answer would be "There's no chance it's not compatible with your laptop. Tell me what happened." If I wasn't ready to argue, I wouldn't have said anything. Arguing in this case means to troubleshoot with him. Sometimes I think that other people think the purpose of argument is to hurt people. The purpose of argument (for me) is to make the people who are arguing smarter than they were before the argument. I don't get pleasure out of hurting my father or showing him up - I like my father. If anything, I want to make him feel smarter than he is, and I hope he feels the same about me. edit: Also, it may turn out this is a weird corner-case and MySQL is somehow incompatible with his laptop. I'm not a MySQL scientist. After finding that out, though, I'm a tiny bit closer to being one.

drdaeman 5y ago
This. I don't get it either. In my view, the "no way, it must work" is a non-optimal but perfectly valid conversation starter (please explain me why not if I'm wrong). As long as that's not the whole conversation (which would mean there are way worse problems than lack of explicit inquiry in that response) and there's at some sort of follow-up from either party, I don't really see the problem here. (Disclaimer: I'm explicitly not thinking up circumstances, tone, gestures or anything else not included in that short snippet. Obviously. It's well possible same exact words spoken in different contexts or with different tone or body language may have quite opposite meanings.) Yes, there are better responses. But it's definitely not a "well, that sucks and you're wrong, go try some more" either.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  I think the issue is how people approach the purpose of conversation. Many internet forum conversations take the form of arguing or debate. That is to say, the goal is getting to the bottom of a dispute showing someone that they are wrong (or learning that you are). People who do this often fall into the habit of defaulting to this mindset and goal in conversations where this is not the purpose. "no way, it must work" is a non-optimal but perfectly valid conversation starter. The problem is when there isnt follow up on the real point of the conversation (helping dad), because they treated the interaction as an argument to be won. >My dad told me that he wants to dabble in programming, but MySQL isn’t compatible with his laptop. My response? "Yeah there’s no way that’s true. MySQL will work on anything." Instead of taking a look at this laptop and working on the problem with him, I just told him that he's wrong and he doesn't know what he's doing (basically). The other example is even more telling: >my ex-girlfriend once told me that hospitals can’t require their staff to wear N95 masks at all times -- only regular masks. I immediately said "I don’t believe that. They can probably do whatever they want." Instead of being empathetic toward a nurse after a 12-hour shift, I was more concerned over hospital policy. The ex-girlfirend isnt looking for a spirited argument or debate after a long day. They dont care about who is right or wrong, or getting to the factual bottom of things. The author is dragging this mindset into a conversation where it is unwanted and doesn't belong.

xupybd 5y ago

This is typical programmer behavior. We end up in tech because we have more interest in thing than people. Empathy is not as developed as technical aptitude. I don't think it's a result of an online forum. Perhaps gathering with like minded people doesn't help but the problem goes deeper. Ultimately this sort of issue is about personal development. I say this as someone with plenty to work on myself. Use whatever strategies you think will result in the personal growth you desire. One strategy might be to avoid HN. However HN is not the problem you are. Taking responsibility will help you grow. You're influenced by your environment but you're responsible for how you respond to your environment. You always have a choice.

achillesheels 5y ago
Picking up feminine hobbies definitely balances out the need for constant mathematically rigorous accuracy. It softens the mind to enjoy the ride ;)

thxCronyCap 5y ago

But you’re right. Getting it to work is a Google search. If people want to collaborate, sure. I play 3 instruments, have stripped multiple cars to the frame, and rebuilt them, grown food, cooked everything. Lets collaborate on something worth connecting over. Please don’t make me collaborate over copy-pasting a bash script or a one line Docker command. I find those issues have nothing to do with the complexity of figuring it out but belief in division of labor. A sad, functionally fixed idea of what a person can do.

allenu 5y ago

I've noticed myself doing this in the last year or so. I've done it all my life, I'm sure, but it's the first time I really recognized the behavior. I wish I had caught it sooner because it definitely comes across as rude and a bit condescending. I think for so many of us, we desire to be correct, or to correct people or the world, so much that we miss out on the true "signal" someone is sending us with their message. In this case, the author's dad wanting help in getting into programming. I don't know if it's 100% true, but for me it feels like correcting people is partly wanting validation that I'm smart or know things. It's sort of performative, and can be very selfish.

aksss 5y ago

“Congrats, your first lesson in programming is troubleshooting a MySQL installation”. I would help him logically troubleshoot, and understand how to enjoy* the problem rather than be frustrated by it, but no way would I do it for him. He’ll have many harder problems soon enough. Make it a teachable moment. * I’m not saying it will always be enjoyable - nothing sucks more than things that should work but don’t when you’re on a schedule, but if it’s your first foray into taking technical “ownership” of your system, ya better learn to be interested in the new problems, understanding the clockworks, and learning to think as the machine does.

ksec 5y ago

You know, I think that is not toxic, and I would argue it is not smart or dumb ( so to speak ) as the author tries to put it. It is simply youth and inexperience, or age and wisdom depending on the situation and how you view it. And that is a problem in online discussion because I dont know people's age. ( And that is going to get drawn into ageism discussions but let's ignore that for now ) If I know you are only 20ish. My first instinct wouldn't be try and correct you it "really" isn't working. It is to convince you to take a look. And give you directions. You cant give people answer to questions or problems they have. They have to figure it out the answer themselves. The experience of real learning. And online discussions misses a lot of these context. Or at least very hard to do it correctly. You should, in most cases grown out of it in your 30s, or about 10 years after you start working in the society. And laugh about the stupidity of it in your 40s or 50s. My biggest concern is somehow there are increasingly number of people, especially in tech ( I have no idea why ) that dont grown out of it.

karmakaze 5y ago

I recognize myself in this story, but I wouldn't say that I mean to be mean or dismissive or superior. Usually it's that I fall into the trap of being 'too literal'. We spend all day being very precise about the conditions and cases where we are making changes, amendments, or extending capabilities. It drives me crazy when people won't just get to the point of the story or ask that can be scoped-out if-and-as necessary. I'm not talking about interacting with inexperienced people either, they're otherwise very intelligent and articulate but have a way of speaking that seems all so inefficient or ineffective, often adding lots of emotional embellishments that don't change the problem statement. Now, I'm not usually as unaware of insensitive as that description may sound, but you may be able to see some truth in the patterns. [I kind-of feel like I'm on a rant, so I'll add this too. The worst is when engineers at a meeting debate the 'root cause' theorizing all the permutations and possibilities to identify the correct one, taking as long as that takes. Often a simple search through the source-code or log files would have narrowed it down to but a few to easily verify--but they'd rather be playing RCA golf out loud.]

torstenvl 5y ago

I struggle with understanding this viewpoint. I don't think the son is being harsh or dismissive, in fact it strikes me as utterly guileless. He has a reaction . o O (That can't be right...) and voices it without artifice or manipulation. On the other hand, the father presumably knows that the son is technically inclined, but dismisses his expertise out of hand. He's struggling, but he doesn't say "I'm struggling getting this to work." The author presumes that the father wants him to help, and I defer to him on that, but the father doesn't ask for help. Instead he stakes out an extreme position (it's incompatible!). In some cases, people do this in an intentionally manipulative way! (See comment in this thread about the timeless technique of confidently stating a wrong answer to goad people into jumping in.) I don't know the author or his father, so I don't know what their actual intentions or interactions are. Please don't read my comment as impugning them or their motives in any way. But the hypothetical situation as presented does not lead me to the conclusions that I think the author intends readers to reach.