4 ms·

Worth pointing out that pumped storage can store power for months if necessary, but it can generally only supply electricity for several hours before it runs ou

Worth pointing out that pumped storage can store power for months if necessary, but it can generally only supply electricity for several hours before it runs out. Whereas a nuclear powerplant will supply that electricity indefinitely. So if you have a wind lull that lasts several days you may run into issues unless you have a lot of pumped storage.

lm28469 5y ago
It's also worth pointing out that to pump water up hill you still need an energy source...
- Arnt 5y ago
  A simple problem if you're willing to pump that water uphill while the sun is shining.
  - lm28469 5y ago
    ""Simple"" if you have the topography/natural resources to build it in the first place, ie not that simple
    - pydry 5y ago
      http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ This seems to think that there are 100x as many topogrophical options as are required under pessimistic circumstances.
      - lm28469 5y ago
        Sucks to be in Europe I guess, which is where I'm based. It should be done everywhere it can be done cheaply but it's still no viable alternative
        Arnt 5y ago
        Oh, there are nice sites in Europe that aren't listed there. Old mines have been discussed, for example. I'm guessing that the big problem today is that there isn't a large price difference between night and day. I'm sure you can find an old mine with enough land to build a ground-level water reservoir above it, but you can't buy nearly free solar power at noon and sell expensive power at night. Once there's enough solar/wind power generation capability to cover its needs on average days, there'll be cheap power to be had for anyone who who can use power only when the sun is shining brightly or the wind blowing strongly. At that point the economics of these schemes may make sense, and it may be worth someone's while to try to solve the practical/legal problems.
pydry 5y ago
Also worth pointing out that * Newer wind turbines produce power a lot more consistently (being taller). * There's a huge amount of cheap, low hanging fruit with respect to demand shaping that we've barely scratched the surface of. E.g. aluminium smelters in germany dont particularly care about having a constant source of power they just want cheap. They dial up and down with the spot cost. Smart storage heaters can displace gas heaters. Cars can be programmed to charge when electricity is cheap. * You dont actually want a source that produces constant power you want supply to match demand. * Week long lulls in the wind on a contiental level are actually pretty rare (& tend to happen in summer when solar output peaks). Added to which, offshore lulls tend to line up with onshore peaks and vice versa. * Nuclear power involves taxpayers buying an option out on potential cleanup costs ($800 billion in Japan). * Non-nuclear renewables get built a lot quicker than nuclear, are not subject to budget/timetable overruns and are likely to continue plunging in price.
- AndrewDucker 5y ago
  Week-long lulls are rare - but you do get prolonged periods of lower winds, so you need oversupply to deal with that: https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/weak-winds-worsened-europes-power-crunch-utilities-need-better-storage-2021-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/weak-winds-worse... But absolutely, better despatch, better demand shaping, and better storage would all be awesome. I hope we can get storage cheap and prolific enough to avoid the need for nuclear entirely.

lm28469 5y ago

It's also worth pointing out that to pump water up hill you still need an energy source...

Arnt 5y ago
A simple problem if you're willing to pump that water uphill while the sun is shining.
- lm28469 5y ago
  ""Simple"" if you have the topography/natural resources to build it in the first place, ie not that simple
  - pydry 5y ago
    http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/ This seems to think that there are 100x as many topogrophical options as are required under pessimistic circumstances.
    - lm28469 5y ago
      Sucks to be in Europe I guess, which is where I'm based. It should be done everywhere it can be done cheaply but it's still no viable alternative
      - Arnt 5y ago
        Oh, there are nice sites in Europe that aren't listed there. Old mines have been discussed, for example. I'm guessing that the big problem today is that there isn't a large price difference between night and day. I'm sure you can find an old mine with enough land to build a ground-level water reservoir above it, but you can't buy nearly free solar power at noon and sell expensive power at night. Once there's enough solar/wind power generation capability to cover its needs on average days, there'll be cheap power to be had for anyone who who can use power only when the sun is shining brightly or the wind blowing strongly. At that point the economics of these schemes may make sense, and it may be worth someone's while to try to solve the practical/legal problems.

pydry 5y ago

Also worth pointing out that * Newer wind turbines produce power a lot more consistently (being taller). * There's a huge amount of cheap, low hanging fruit with respect to demand shaping that we've barely scratched the surface of. E.g. aluminium smelters in germany dont particularly care about having a constant source of power they just want cheap. They dial up and down with the spot cost. Smart storage heaters can displace gas heaters. Cars can be programmed to charge when electricity is cheap. * You dont actually want a source that produces constant power you want supply to match demand. * Week long lulls in the wind on a contiental level are actually pretty rare (& tend to happen in summer when solar output peaks). Added to which, offshore lulls tend to line up with onshore peaks and vice versa. * Nuclear power involves taxpayers buying an option out on potential cleanup costs ($800 billion in Japan). * Non-nuclear renewables get built a lot quicker than nuclear, are not subject to budget/timetable overruns and are likely to continue plunging in price.

AndrewDucker 5y ago
Week-long lulls are rare - but you do get prolonged periods of lower winds, so you need oversupply to deal with that: https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/weak-winds-worsened-europes-power-crunch-utilities-need-better-storage-2021-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/weak-winds-worse... But absolutely, better despatch, better demand shaping, and better storage would all be awesome. I hope we can get storage cheap and prolific enough to avoid the need for nuclear entirely.