7 ms·

Freedom of speech ends IMO when people can't sleep or enjoy the city they live in for a very extended time b/c of the 24/7 honking. I am all for demonstrating,

by _clhx 5y ago

Freedom of speech ends IMO when people can't sleep or enjoy the city they live in for a very extended time b/c of the 24/7 honking. I am all for demonstrating, but I think it is a little ridiculous what they are doing.

analogdreams 5y ago
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  I don’t think blocking up and honking in a random city where the politicians don’t actually live will do all that much, just expressing frustration at other citizens who have done nothing to harm them. I think those citizens in turn are right to be angry and upset and feel they are being disrupted because they are. I don’t begrudge them this and I don’t think it has anything to do with social betters or not. Having spoken to folks who live there, it apparently really is super disruptive, one person reportedly couldn’t get chemo because of the disruption.
  - analogdreams 5y ago
    - chabes 5y ago
    - rpeden 5y ago
      Not many of us up here are too concerned with American protests and quotes from American politicians. I don't mean to take anything away from them - just that I'm not sure how applicable they are here. Most Canadians I know (whether on the left or right of the political spectrum) would find those quotes from AOC and Waters to be profoundly un-Canadian. I realize I don't know everyone and can't speak for everything, though. The BLM protest in Ottawa showed up, stayed peaceful, protested, and left. As did all of the many protests I saw while living in downtown Ottawa. I have friends living in the area still and they were subjected to a sleepless week of harassment by damagingly loud train horns and people giving them shit for choosing to wear a mask. That's not a peaceful protest. It's not just discomfort. It's a crime. And the fact they're behaving better now doesn't erase their past behaviour. I think that having a discussion on ending mandates is fine. It's a good time for that. But I also want to see them face legal consequences for their behaviour toward the innocent citizens of Centretown. And I don't like how they tried to blackmail the government into making changes by hurting their fellow citizens. I think that is undemocratic.
      - refurb 5y ago
        In the US it was "silence is violence", but I guess in Canada its "honking is violence"?
        rpeden 5y ago
        Honking regular horns? No. Annoying, but not violent. These were train horns that were well over 100db outside and still over 80db inside people's apartments. Loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage. So yes, if you're doing something that can cause lasting damage, it's violence. There's a wide gulf between honking loudly enough to annoy and honking loudly enough to injure. It's really not that hard to not cross it, but they did, for days on end. As I said - they seem to be behaving better now. Maybe it's petty and vindictive, but I don't think it's okay to just let that kind of thing pass without consequences for the perpetrators.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      That’s a lot of rhetoric but not a lot of substance. My position is an extremely milquetoast “people are allowed to be upset when upsetting things happen to them; this doesn’t make them elitist”.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > their social betters need beauty sleep I bet some of the people they were tormenting are anti-vaxxers themselves. Everyone gets annoyed if you keep them awake all night, every night.
rmbyrro 5y ago
I think it's worth looking for a common ground that accommodates free speech and sleeping? My personal opinion: your threshold to kill free speech is way, WAY too low.
- monkeydreams 5y ago
  You think that the onus is on the sleepers rather than the protestors? Why should the sleepers have to put up with endless noise (along with the damage that sleeplessness brings) just so another person can exercise their right to free speech?
  - shermablanca 5y ago
    What makes you think they’re honking all through the night? From what I’ve heard they stop at 8:00pm. Claims to the contrary do not come with corresponding evidence. Anyone here with on the ground experience about the nighttime situation?
    - monkeydreams 5y ago
      > What makes you think they’re honking all through the night? From what I’ve heard they stop at 8:00pm. Claims to the contrary do not come with corresponding evidence. Perhaps reading the comment in context of the comment chain is necessary. I am making no claims as to the truckers, I am stating that the onus is on those who are causing damage by their "Free Speech" to adjust to avoid causing that damage, rather than on the people suffering the damage.
    - chaps 5y ago
      https://twitter.com/MariekeWalsh/status/1490190716378701826 https://twitter.com/MariekeWalsh/status/1490190716378701826 Took 5s to find.
    - slothtrop 5y ago
      You've heard wrong. There are residents who have opted to just leave the city because sleep is impossible. It's a fucking shit show.
mostertoaster 5y ago
Or Canada could just say “you know a trucker without a vaccine really is that big of an issue” Unless Trudeau does that, and god forbid show some humility, this will not end good for Canada.
- Nursie 5y ago
  Why? A tiny minority of truckers is making a huge fuss over really very little - a vaccine being mandated to cross the border. In what way will this "not end good for Canada"? Most likely the blockades will be shut down and everyone else will be able to get on with life.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Vaccine mandates are a huge deal. You think they aren't a big deal because you ignore all the evidence and testimonies of people who have been injured by them. "Most likely the blockades will be shut down and everyone else will be able to get on with life." Except for all people who can't because they got unlucky in the vaccine lottery, like Maddie de Garay: https://thecovidblog.com/2021/07/08/maddie-de-garay-ohio-13-year-old-cannot-and-did-not-consent-to-vaccine-clinical-trials/ https://thecovidblog.com/2021/07/08/maddie-de-garay-ohio-13-... Note: de Garay is a child. Zero benefit from Covid vaccines to her or anyone else. It's bad enough when parents submit their children for medical experimentation like that, but when governments force them to do so it's even worse.
    - slothtrop 5y ago
      Name a reliable source for "injury by vaccine mandate".
    - Nursie 5y ago
      > Zero benefit from Covid vaccines to her or anyone else. Well I can see you're not interested in things like facts, evidence, science or reality. Never mind then.
      - 5y ago
gatlin 5y ago
That's the entire point: to force you to see a problem they feel is ignored. Go tell them your feelings on free speech, I'm sure they'll listen.
- odonnellryan 5y ago
  I'm all for demonstrating, but if you're outside people's houses it's more than demonstrating I think. I don't have the right to go lay on my horn outside your house, and for good reason.

by _clhx 5y ago

analogdreams 5y ago

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
I don’t think blocking up and honking in a random city where the politicians don’t actually live will do all that much, just expressing frustration at other citizens who have done nothing to harm them. I think those citizens in turn are right to be angry and upset and feel they are being disrupted because they are. I don’t begrudge them this and I don’t think it has anything to do with social betters or not. Having spoken to folks who live there, it apparently really is super disruptive, one person reportedly couldn’t get chemo because of the disruption.
- analogdreams 5y ago
  - chabes 5y ago
  - rpeden 5y ago
    Not many of us up here are too concerned with American protests and quotes from American politicians. I don't mean to take anything away from them - just that I'm not sure how applicable they are here. Most Canadians I know (whether on the left or right of the political spectrum) would find those quotes from AOC and Waters to be profoundly un-Canadian. I realize I don't know everyone and can't speak for everything, though. The BLM protest in Ottawa showed up, stayed peaceful, protested, and left. As did all of the many protests I saw while living in downtown Ottawa. I have friends living in the area still and they were subjected to a sleepless week of harassment by damagingly loud train horns and people giving them shit for choosing to wear a mask. That's not a peaceful protest. It's not just discomfort. It's a crime. And the fact they're behaving better now doesn't erase their past behaviour. I think that having a discussion on ending mandates is fine. It's a good time for that. But I also want to see them face legal consequences for their behaviour toward the innocent citizens of Centretown. And I don't like how they tried to blackmail the government into making changes by hurting their fellow citizens. I think that is undemocratic.
    - refurb 5y ago
      In the US it was "silence is violence", but I guess in Canada its "honking is violence"?
      - rpeden 5y ago
        Honking regular horns? No. Annoying, but not violent. These were train horns that were well over 100db outside and still over 80db inside people's apartments. Loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage. So yes, if you're doing something that can cause lasting damage, it's violence. There's a wide gulf between honking loudly enough to annoy and honking loudly enough to injure. It's really not that hard to not cross it, but they did, for days on end. As I said - they seem to be behaving better now. Maybe it's petty and vindictive, but I don't think it's okay to just let that kind of thing pass without consequences for the perpetrators.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    That’s a lot of rhetoric but not a lot of substance. My position is an extremely milquetoast “people are allowed to be upset when upsetting things happen to them; this doesn’t make them elitist”.
rootusrootus 5y ago
> their social betters need beauty sleep I bet some of the people they were tormenting are anti-vaxxers themselves. Everyone gets annoyed if you keep them awake all night, every night.

rmbyrro 5y ago

I think it's worth looking for a common ground that accommodates free speech and sleeping? My personal opinion: your threshold to kill free speech is way, WAY too low.

monkeydreams 5y ago
You think that the onus is on the sleepers rather than the protestors? Why should the sleepers have to put up with endless noise (along with the damage that sleeplessness brings) just so another person can exercise their right to free speech?
- shermablanca 5y ago
  What makes you think they’re honking all through the night? From what I’ve heard they stop at 8:00pm. Claims to the contrary do not come with corresponding evidence. Anyone here with on the ground experience about the nighttime situation?
  - monkeydreams 5y ago
    > What makes you think they’re honking all through the night? From what I’ve heard they stop at 8:00pm. Claims to the contrary do not come with corresponding evidence. Perhaps reading the comment in context of the comment chain is necessary. I am making no claims as to the truckers, I am stating that the onus is on those who are causing damage by their "Free Speech" to adjust to avoid causing that damage, rather than on the people suffering the damage.
  - chaps 5y ago
    https://twitter.com/MariekeWalsh/status/1490190716378701826 https://twitter.com/MariekeWalsh/status/1490190716378701826 Took 5s to find.
  - slothtrop 5y ago
    You've heard wrong. There are residents who have opted to just leave the city because sleep is impossible. It's a fucking shit show.

mostertoaster 5y ago

Or Canada could just say “you know a trucker without a vaccine really is that big of an issue” Unless Trudeau does that, and god forbid show some humility, this will not end good for Canada.

Nursie 5y ago
Why? A tiny minority of truckers is making a huge fuss over really very little - a vaccine being mandated to cross the border. In what way will this "not end good for Canada"? Most likely the blockades will be shut down and everyone else will be able to get on with life.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Vaccine mandates are a huge deal. You think they aren't a big deal because you ignore all the evidence and testimonies of people who have been injured by them. "Most likely the blockades will be shut down and everyone else will be able to get on with life." Except for all people who can't because they got unlucky in the vaccine lottery, like Maddie de Garay: https://thecovidblog.com/2021/07/08/maddie-de-garay-ohio-13-year-old-cannot-and-did-not-consent-to-vaccine-clinical-trials/ https://thecovidblog.com/2021/07/08/maddie-de-garay-ohio-13-... Note: de Garay is a child. Zero benefit from Covid vaccines to her or anyone else. It's bad enough when parents submit their children for medical experimentation like that, but when governments force them to do so it's even worse.
  - slothtrop 5y ago
    Name a reliable source for "injury by vaccine mandate".
  - Nursie 5y ago
    > Zero benefit from Covid vaccines to her or anyone else. Well I can see you're not interested in things like facts, evidence, science or reality. Never mind then.
    - 5y ago

gatlin 5y ago

That's the entire point: to force you to see a problem they feel is ignored. Go tell them your feelings on free speech, I'm sure they'll listen.

odonnellryan 5y ago
I'm all for demonstrating, but if you're outside people's houses it's more than demonstrating I think. I don't have the right to go lay on my horn outside your house, and for good reason.