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Their stated demands are the dissolution of the current democratically elected government, they've conducted educational seminars about the dangers of vaccinati

Their stated demands are the dissolution of the current democratically elected government, they've conducted educational seminars about the dangers of vaccination full of outlandishly false information. Anyone can believe anything they like but none are required to be so credulous as to believe that the protests are simply about vaccine mandates given the large quantity of published evidence that the organizers and participants have a bevy of other agendas they would like to promote.

_3u10 5y ago
This is Canada. Those powers are powers of the MPs. It is a justified action that happens numerous times in Canada, predominantly during minority governments, which is what Trudeau has.
rayiner 5y ago
> Their stated demands are the dissolution of the current democratically elected government “Dissolution of the government” has innocuous meaning in a parliamentary system, where “the government” refers to the executive authority of the current party or coalition in power in parliament: https://sencanada.ca/en/sencaplus/how-why/what-is-dissolution-of-parliament https://sencanada.ca/en/sencaplus/how-why/what-is-dissolutio.... It’s about as dramatic as a recall election in certain American states. Maybe even less so because dissolution of the government technically happens after every Parliamentary election You’re deliberately using unfamiliarity with the term to suggest the truckers are calling for overthrow of the governing institutions of the country—what Americans mean when they refer to “the government.”
- JamisonM 5y ago
  I am not deliberately using unfamiliarity with the term to suggest the truckers are calling for overthrow of the governing institutions of the country - they are in fact calling for exactly that, they published an MOU that didn't call for the government to resign but rather called for the Governor General and the Senate to declare the parliament illegitimate. I was being overly generous in my language by implying that they were just calling for the government to voluntarily resign when in fact they are asking for a non-constitutional coup. I was trying to err on the side of being too fair to their position.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I’ve had family members killed in an attempted coup. Coups involve people with guns. Asking existing government institutions to draw on their reserve powers is not a “coup.” Both the Canadian Senate and the Governor General are, in principle, there to be a check on the House of Commons. Even if asking them to override the actions of the Trudeau government in this context isn’t legally viable, that doesn’t make it an attempt to “overthrow” the government. In the US, our Supreme Court exercises sweeping powers to strike down acts of Congress based on perceived individual rights. That’s not an “overthrow” of the government.
    - JamisonM 5y ago
      I am sorry for your loss and I hope that you and your family received justice and resolution in the end. I did not call this a coup and I respectfully do not regard the requests outlined as "drawing on reserve powers" in the regular Canadian constitutional order. The appointment of citizens committees to govern would clearly be an illegal act. I am trying to engage in good faith to the best of my ability on this topic, that's all I can do.
      - rayiner 5y ago
        You’re not engaging in good faith. You used the word “coup” in your post above to try and paint non-violent protesters seeking redress from their government as being akin to third world insurgents.
        JamisonM 5y ago
        That seems to be the comparison you want to make, not me. Remember, I started with dissolution!
        rayiner 5y ago
        Yes, and then you used the word “coup.” > I was being overly generous in my language by implying that they were just calling for the government to voluntarily resign when in fact they are asking for a non-constitutional coup. People use words to invoke the associated connotations. When people accuse truckers of asking for a coup, they are deliberately drawing a comparison to this: https://www-gannett--cdn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/09/07/USAT/fc80019e-4a6e-4003-b91f-adb5c8bfb0ed-AFP_AFP_9MB2ZY.jpg https://www-gannett--cdn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/www.gann.... It’s an attempt to demonize and dehumanize political opposition. By drawing a comparison to armed insurgents, the point is to justify disproportionate government responses. This tactic is common in Bangladesh for that purpose. Sad to see it happening in North America.
pdog 5y ago
Their most prominently stated demand is ending all state-backed mandates and lockdowns. Where did you see anything about the dissolution of their elected government? Or, are you referring to the parliamentary system?
- JamisonM 5y ago
  https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-why-ottawa-cant-give-it-to-them https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-... From the article: A Memorandum of Understanding posted to the group’s website sets out a framework to effectively dissolve the federal government in favour of a “Citizens of Canada Committee” composed of the Senate, the Governor General and whoever else Canada Unity selects. This committee of entirely unelected figures would then “instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal governments to immediately cease and desist all unconstitutional human rights, discriminatory and segregated actions.” If enacted, the MOU would represent an unprecedented dissolution of the federal system and put an abrupt end to 155 years of continuous parliamentary rule (a record that happens to rank us as one of the world’s oldest democracies).
TeeMassive 5y ago
Can you back what you say with specific examples and how it represents the general consensus of the movement?
- JamisonM 5y ago
  The main organizers published an MOU before arriving in the capital and that organizing group still represents the occupation in Ottawa as their defacto leadership and by all accounts appears to be in control of the allocation of resources. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-why-ottawa-cant-give-it-to-them https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-... Every protest movement encounters the problem of leadership and managing consensus but the core group is quite small that stays during the week, if they were not aligned with the self-appointed leadership it would be very clear to any outside observer. There are public declarations of moderation but the Zello and Telegram channels operated by the leadership consistently offer assertions of positions consistent with the original MOU., culminating in efforts like this: https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/governor-generals-office-inundated-by-protest-supporters-demanding-the-pm-be-fired https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/governor-generals-off...
Sophistifunk 5y ago
> dissolution of the current democratically elected government Basically means "a no-confidence vote"
- JamisonM 5y ago
  I was very generous in my language here, they are actually asking for some extra-constitutional remedy involving "citizen committees" governing the country. It would be much more reasonable for them to be simply demanding the normal resignation of the government and new elections, but we just had an election, so I presume they are well aware of the fact that the result would not be favourable to their goals.

_3u10 5y ago

This is Canada. Those powers are powers of the MPs. It is a justified action that happens numerous times in Canada, predominantly during minority governments, which is what Trudeau has.

rayiner 5y ago

> Their stated demands are the dissolution of the current democratically elected government “Dissolution of the government” has innocuous meaning in a parliamentary system, where “the government” refers to the executive authority of the current party or coalition in power in parliament: https://sencanada.ca/en/sencaplus/how-why/what-is-dissolution-of-parliament https://sencanada.ca/en/sencaplus/how-why/what-is-dissolutio.... It’s about as dramatic as a recall election in certain American states. Maybe even less so because dissolution of the government technically happens after every Parliamentary election You’re deliberately using unfamiliarity with the term to suggest the truckers are calling for overthrow of the governing institutions of the country—what Americans mean when they refer to “the government.”

JamisonM 5y ago
I am not deliberately using unfamiliarity with the term to suggest the truckers are calling for overthrow of the governing institutions of the country - they are in fact calling for exactly that, they published an MOU that didn't call for the government to resign but rather called for the Governor General and the Senate to declare the parliament illegitimate. I was being overly generous in my language by implying that they were just calling for the government to voluntarily resign when in fact they are asking for a non-constitutional coup. I was trying to err on the side of being too fair to their position.
- rayiner 5y ago
  I’ve had family members killed in an attempted coup. Coups involve people with guns. Asking existing government institutions to draw on their reserve powers is not a “coup.” Both the Canadian Senate and the Governor General are, in principle, there to be a check on the House of Commons. Even if asking them to override the actions of the Trudeau government in this context isn’t legally viable, that doesn’t make it an attempt to “overthrow” the government. In the US, our Supreme Court exercises sweeping powers to strike down acts of Congress based on perceived individual rights. That’s not an “overthrow” of the government.
  - JamisonM 5y ago
    I am sorry for your loss and I hope that you and your family received justice and resolution in the end. I did not call this a coup and I respectfully do not regard the requests outlined as "drawing on reserve powers" in the regular Canadian constitutional order. The appointment of citizens committees to govern would clearly be an illegal act. I am trying to engage in good faith to the best of my ability on this topic, that's all I can do.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      You’re not engaging in good faith. You used the word “coup” in your post above to try and paint non-violent protesters seeking redress from their government as being akin to third world insurgents.
      - JamisonM 5y ago
        That seems to be the comparison you want to make, not me. Remember, I started with dissolution!
        rayiner 5y ago
        Yes, and then you used the word “coup.” > I was being overly generous in my language by implying that they were just calling for the government to voluntarily resign when in fact they are asking for a non-constitutional coup. People use words to invoke the associated connotations. When people accuse truckers of asking for a coup, they are deliberately drawing a comparison to this: https://www-gannett--cdn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/09/07/USAT/fc80019e-4a6e-4003-b91f-adb5c8bfb0ed-AFP_AFP_9MB2ZY.jpg https://www-gannett--cdn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/www.gann.... It’s an attempt to demonize and dehumanize political opposition. By drawing a comparison to armed insurgents, the point is to justify disproportionate government responses. This tactic is common in Bangladesh for that purpose. Sad to see it happening in North America.

pdog 5y ago

Their most prominently stated demand is ending all state-backed mandates and lockdowns. Where did you see anything about the dissolution of their elected government? Or, are you referring to the parliamentary system?

JamisonM 5y ago
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-why-ottawa-cant-give-it-to-them https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-... From the article: A Memorandum of Understanding posted to the group’s website sets out a framework to effectively dissolve the federal government in favour of a “Citizens of Canada Committee” composed of the Senate, the Governor General and whoever else Canada Unity selects. This committee of entirely unelected figures would then “instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal governments to immediately cease and desist all unconstitutional human rights, discriminatory and segregated actions.” If enacted, the MOU would represent an unprecedented dissolution of the federal system and put an abrupt end to 155 years of continuous parliamentary rule (a record that happens to rank us as one of the world’s oldest democracies).

TeeMassive 5y ago

Can you back what you say with specific examples and how it represents the general consensus of the movement?

JamisonM 5y ago
The main organizers published an MOU before arriving in the capital and that organizing group still represents the occupation in Ottawa as their defacto leadership and by all accounts appears to be in control of the allocation of resources. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-why-ottawa-cant-give-it-to-them https://nationalpost.com/opinion/what-the-truckers-want-and-... Every protest movement encounters the problem of leadership and managing consensus but the core group is quite small that stays during the week, if they were not aligned with the self-appointed leadership it would be very clear to any outside observer. There are public declarations of moderation but the Zello and Telegram channels operated by the leadership consistently offer assertions of positions consistent with the original MOU., culminating in efforts like this: https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/governor-generals-office-inundated-by-protest-supporters-demanding-the-pm-be-fired https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/governor-generals-off...

Sophistifunk 5y ago

> dissolution of the current democratically elected government Basically means "a no-confidence vote"

JamisonM 5y ago
I was very generous in my language here, they are actually asking for some extra-constitutional remedy involving "citizen committees" governing the country. It would be much more reasonable for them to be simply demanding the normal resignation of the government and new elections, but we just had an election, so I presume they are well aware of the fact that the result would not be favourable to their goals.