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Should we apply the same standards to things like BLM or Moms Demand Action? Those standards being "billionaires donated, therefore illegitimate" as far as I c

Should we apply the same standards to things like BLM or Moms Demand Action? Those standards being "billionaires donated, therefore illegitimate" as far as I can tell.

not2b 5y ago
BLM protesters have been promptly arrested when they blocked streets or failed to disperse when the police ordered it, often rather violently. If these protesters want to get the same treatment BLM protesters got, they may well regret it.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  They have also been given a free pass in other instances. It's gone both ways.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    How many BLM protesters were arrested, though? Something like 14,000? I don't think they got much of a free pass.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      In fairness BLM was far more violent. Neighborhoods were burned to the ground, businesses were looted, people were injured, and several people were killed. Moreover, the BLM protests involved millions of people, so 14K arrests seems believable. Moreover, how many of the arrested were charged (getting arrested on its own isn’t that big of a deal).
      - eric_h 5y ago
        > Neighborhoods were burned to the ground This is the first I'm hearing of this. Which neighborhoods were burned to the ground?
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        Various parts of Kenosha off the top of my head. Most other arson cases were isolated businesses, police precincts, etc. There were also entire neighborhoods in which virtually every business was looted. We had at least a few such neighborhoods in Chicago, and there were many others across the country including many of the communities that BLM folks purport to care about.
        eric_h 5y ago
        I see. I googled and what I found did not quite equate to what I would call "neighborhoods burned to the ground" but noted.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        I'm sure "neighborhoods" isn't quite the right term, but the videos I've seen of the aftermath are hard to exaggerate.
        ric2b 5y ago
        I'm not sure if they are, you did pretty good at exaggerating them.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  They occupied several blocks in a city for weeks with no dispersing.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Sure but that was in a very liberal city. The USA is a very large country with a full spectrum of reactions. If they would have tried that in say a large city in Texas or Montana the state police would have busted it up within a couple days.
  - dicknuckle 5y ago
    ....and the truckers in Ottawa haven't? Did this protest not start over 2 weeks ago?
- b112 5y ago
  Didn't they take over a massive section of Seattle for a month?
- notjoemama 5y ago
  You and I remember Budapest very differently. In Portland Oregon, BLM spray painted buildings, burnt many things in the middle of the road and sidewalks, destroyed property, physically assaulted, broke windows, and ripped down bus stops and statues. They formulated an incursion into a state building putting the lives of Oregon's law officers in jeopardy (Molotov cocktails throw at them). Depending on your persuasion, you might argue some justification occurred in Minneapolis Minnesota. But there are clearly limits when destruction of property and looting fall far outside of any tenuous reflection of social unrest. (Target?) Seattle Washington was worse. Much much worse. The city directed their police force to yield a central block of the city to armed rebellion. People, one as I recall completely innocent, were shot and killed. There was not the immediacy nor the widespread arrests to match the level of violence and destruction in these three locations. In terms of accuracy and spirit I believe you have missed the mark in your description of action and response. There have been some good points in this thread otherwise and I'm still thinking about them. But you would be better served by re-evaluating your position on this topic.
  - gammarator 5y ago
    That description of what happened in Seattle is inaccurate. See https://kuow.org/stories/we-know-who-made-the-call-to-seattle-police-s-east-precinct-last-summer-finally https://kuow.org/stories/we-know-who-made-the-call-to-seattl... Mid-level police commanders unilaterally decided to abandon the precinct, which allowed CHAZ to form. Not “the city,” and not in the face of “armed rebellion.” (Yes, there were guns and unfortunate violence later: after the police left. Their job is maintaining public order; they failed.)
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      The police job in the history of modern republics was never to maintain "public order", unless by that you mean preventing disruption of existing systems of privilege. I can only recommend reading Michel Foucault "Discipline and Punish" about the society of control, and the roles of the police and judicial system.
      - 5y ago
- Steltek 5y ago
  It seems like BLM is the new Godwin's Law of protesting. This is like inappropriately invoking the Holocaust. BLM arose from several extrajudicial murders by police after a history of racism and mistreatment by the state. The trucker protest is essentially about commerce policy in an already very heavily regulated industry. It's hard to imagine other similar jobs where mandating your hours of sleep is discussed by a federal legislature (possibly international treaty too?). The perspective is important because these are obviously not the same thing.
_whiteCaps_ 5y ago
No, I'm referring to Americans donating to Canadian causes, and yes, it's a problem both ways: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/foreign-donors-gave-1-3-billion-to-canadian-environmentalists-to-hurt-alberta-energy-sector-report https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/foreign-donors-gave-1-3... > The inquiry launched by Alberta Premier Jason Kenney’s government into the scale of foreign funds aimed at damaging the province’s oil and gas industry has issued its long-awaited report, finding that foreign donors provided nearly $1.3 billion in funds for Canadian environmental campaigns between 2003 and 2019.
- ejanus 5y ago
  Why is it wrong? When Indian farmers started theirs money poured in from all over the world. When Nigerians started theirs same thing happened. Why should Canada be different?

Should we apply the same standards to things like BLM or Moms Demand Action? Those standards being "billionaires donated, therefore illegitimate" as far as I can tell.

not2b 5y ago

BLM protesters have been promptly arrested when they blocked streets or failed to disperse when the police ordered it, often rather violently. If these protesters want to get the same treatment BLM protesters got, they may well regret it.

RHSeeger 5y ago
They have also been given a free pass in other instances. It's gone both ways.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  How many BLM protesters were arrested, though? Something like 14,000? I don't think they got much of a free pass.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    In fairness BLM was far more violent. Neighborhoods were burned to the ground, businesses were looted, people were injured, and several people were killed. Moreover, the BLM protests involved millions of people, so 14K arrests seems believable. Moreover, how many of the arrested were charged (getting arrested on its own isn’t that big of a deal).
    - eric_h 5y ago
      > Neighborhoods were burned to the ground This is the first I'm hearing of this. Which neighborhoods were burned to the ground?
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        Various parts of Kenosha off the top of my head. Most other arson cases were isolated businesses, police precincts, etc. There were also entire neighborhoods in which virtually every business was looted. We had at least a few such neighborhoods in Chicago, and there were many others across the country including many of the communities that BLM folks purport to care about.
        eric_h 5y ago
        I see. I googled and what I found did not quite equate to what I would call "neighborhoods burned to the ground" but noted.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        I'm sure "neighborhoods" isn't quite the right term, but the videos I've seen of the aftermath are hard to exaggerate.
        ric2b 5y ago
        I'm not sure if they are, you did pretty good at exaggerating them.
collegeburner 5y ago
They occupied several blocks in a city for weeks with no dispersing.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Sure but that was in a very liberal city. The USA is a very large country with a full spectrum of reactions. If they would have tried that in say a large city in Texas or Montana the state police would have busted it up within a couple days.
- dicknuckle 5y ago
  ....and the truckers in Ottawa haven't? Did this protest not start over 2 weeks ago?
b112 5y ago
Didn't they take over a massive section of Seattle for a month?
notjoemama 5y ago
You and I remember Budapest very differently. In Portland Oregon, BLM spray painted buildings, burnt many things in the middle of the road and sidewalks, destroyed property, physically assaulted, broke windows, and ripped down bus stops and statues. They formulated an incursion into a state building putting the lives of Oregon's law officers in jeopardy (Molotov cocktails throw at them). Depending on your persuasion, you might argue some justification occurred in Minneapolis Minnesota. But there are clearly limits when destruction of property and looting fall far outside of any tenuous reflection of social unrest. (Target?) Seattle Washington was worse. Much much worse. The city directed their police force to yield a central block of the city to armed rebellion. People, one as I recall completely innocent, were shot and killed. There was not the immediacy nor the widespread arrests to match the level of violence and destruction in these three locations. In terms of accuracy and spirit I believe you have missed the mark in your description of action and response. There have been some good points in this thread otherwise and I'm still thinking about them. But you would be better served by re-evaluating your position on this topic.
- gammarator 5y ago
  That description of what happened in Seattle is inaccurate. See https://kuow.org/stories/we-know-who-made-the-call-to-seattle-police-s-east-precinct-last-summer-finally https://kuow.org/stories/we-know-who-made-the-call-to-seattl... Mid-level police commanders unilaterally decided to abandon the precinct, which allowed CHAZ to form. Not “the city,” and not in the face of “armed rebellion.” (Yes, there were guns and unfortunate violence later: after the police left. Their job is maintaining public order; they failed.)
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    The police job in the history of modern republics was never to maintain "public order", unless by that you mean preventing disruption of existing systems of privilege. I can only recommend reading Michel Foucault "Discipline and Punish" about the society of control, and the roles of the police and judicial system.
    - 5y ago
Steltek 5y ago
It seems like BLM is the new Godwin's Law of protesting. This is like inappropriately invoking the Holocaust. BLM arose from several extrajudicial murders by police after a history of racism and mistreatment by the state. The trucker protest is essentially about commerce policy in an already very heavily regulated industry. It's hard to imagine other similar jobs where mandating your hours of sleep is discussed by a federal legislature (possibly international treaty too?). The perspective is important because these are obviously not the same thing.

_whiteCaps_ 5y ago

No, I'm referring to Americans donating to Canadian causes, and yes, it's a problem both ways: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/foreign-donors-gave-1-3-billion-to-canadian-environmentalists-to-hurt-alberta-energy-sector-report https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/foreign-donors-gave-1-3... > The inquiry launched by Alberta Premier Jason Kenney’s government into the scale of foreign funds aimed at damaging the province’s oil and gas industry has issued its long-awaited report, finding that foreign donors provided nearly $1.3 billion in funds for Canadian environmental campaigns between 2003 and 2019.

ejanus 5y ago
Why is it wrong? When Indian farmers started theirs money poured in from all over the world. When Nigerians started theirs same thing happened. Why should Canada be different?