4 ms·

Because the few who don’t comply to public health recommendations/orders are responsible for the greater share of the economic burden of disease, and this burde

by epgui 5y ago

Because the few who don’t comply to public health recommendations/orders are responsible for the greater share of the economic burden of disease, and this burden was totally preventable.

Zanneth 5y ago
That is not true at all. The greatest burden on the economy was the lockdowns and extreme countermeasures. People choosing not to get vaccinated may have caused unnecessary burden on the healthcare system, but to blame them for the struggling economy is just wrong.
- epgui 5y ago
  I am a life scientist, and with respect, you're flatly incorrect. The first-order costs of public health measures scale linearly, and the first-order costs of infectious diseases scale exponentially. Higher-order costs are at least comparable between the two, and I would argue much higher in the case of covid than in the case of lockdowns. (This being said, very few governments did lockdowns properly, and therefore almost every half-measure taken was ineffective and wasteful.)
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    As a heads up, your bio still says you are a software engineer at CircleCI.
    - epgui 5y ago
      That I am, but I have 12 years of post secondary education (and research experience) in life science, mostly in biochem.
  - Zanneth 5y ago
    A vast majority of people who contract COVID recover without any treatment. Are you arguing that the minority who don't impose higher costs than locking down the entire country?
    - epgui 5y ago
      I can only guess what your question is (sorry, bad grammar), but I’d rather not guess. What exactly is the question?
    - mastersummoner 5y ago
      Over 900k dead in the US alone from covid. Sure, that's a minority, but can you really shrug your shoulders at that number and say it's just a minority, no big deal?
      - Zanneth 5y ago
        Did I say that it wasn’t a big deal? Nobody is denying that. I cringe at the number of people who die every year due to smoking, car accidents, etc. But I certainly wouldn’t recommend mandating anything that gets in the way of people taking those risks if they choose to.
        epgui 5y ago
        Like seatbelt mandates, taxes on tobacco products, food safety regulation (preventing the importation of certain hazardous foods), environmental regulation, or any other sort of coercive action (either against individuals, against corporations, or against government itself) taken by government to protect people? It’s obviously a rhetorical question. I’d suggest that in all cases whether such mandates are appropriate depends on their proportionality relative to the harms they prevent.
        davidgay 5y ago
        > Did I say that it wasn’t a big deal? Nobody is denying that. I cringe at the number of people who die every year due to smoking, car accidents, etc. Car accidents are 30-40k/year in the US, so 10% of covid. And the number of measures taken to reduce car accidents is extraordinary - age limits, compulsory driver's licenses, city design rules (roads, pedestrian crossings, etc, etc), speed limits, car construction regulations, compulsory insurance, and more. Given that, what's the appropriate level of regulation you suggest for covid?
- _3u10 5y ago
  Exactly. In Canada, $40,000 per person was spent on lockdowns most of which went to large companies posting record profits. Zilch on making an ICU room for every Canadian which is what that money could have bought should it have been spent responsibly.
  - epgui 5y ago
    I am prepared to believe this number, but I think a citation would be very helpful here. In any case, have you bothered to also look up the economic burden of disease of covid-19 in Canada, in terms of QALYs and/or DALYs?
    - _3u10 5y ago
      Not familiar with either of those acronyms. It’s mentioned in Pierre Poliveres speech in parliament, here’s a link: https://youtu.be/cGbnjF3OdNQ https://youtu.be/cGbnjF3OdNQ
      - shakna 5y ago
        QALYs and DALYs are how you measure the burden of health. Quality-Adjusted Life Years, and Disability Affected Life Years, respectively. Without an understanding of them, you can't actually have an objective conversation about measuring the impact of any kind of illness.
        _3u10 5y ago
        It’s pretty easy. Mandating people get vaccinated for diseases they already had is the height of dumb. That’s what this protest is about, does the govt have the right to force your employer to fire you if you don’t get vaccinated for a disease you already have.
        epgui 5y ago
        > Mandating people get vaccinated for diseases they already had is the height of dumb. Why do you believe this? Do you assume there is no benefit to doing so? Or do you assume that the harms outweigh the benefits? You'd be wrong on both counts. [1] [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01676-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01676-0
- YZF 5y ago
  What extreme countermeasures were done in BC? Closing Yoga studios for 4 weeks? Our economy has done pretty well during the pandemic. Is it all fun and games, nope. As a vaccinated person I flat out blame the people that didn't get vaccinated for making the last year much worse than it'd had to be. If we had better vaccine coverage we wouldn't need the restrictions that we had to put in place. They don't only put burden on the healthcare system (which they do), preventing people that need care from getting it (which they do), but they also mean the rest of us have to do more because they're not willing to do their share. I guess the bright side is that this is a tiny minority around these parts.
  - epgui 5y ago
    For my part, while I do blame the unvaccinated at least in part, I place even greater blame on all the anti-mask and anti-social-distancing insanity we’ve seen in both Canada and the US. (In many cases these are the same groups of people, it seems... But I believe in being specific in my accusations.) While we developed vaccines at an impressive speed, governments royally screwed up the rollouts and logistics. Had we all done real proper lockdowns and taken public health recommendations seriously for a few weeks, and had governments been properly supportive (ie.: enabling) of that, our current vaccination uptake might have been enough to eradicate covid-19.
    - nathanaldensr 5y ago
      You can't possibly know these hypothetical would-have-been futures would have actually happened. You're not omnipotent.
      - epgui 5y ago
        You really don’t need to be omnipotent to know it. For months, Canada was hovering at an Rt just above 1.0. Very little more would have been required to tip the balance.
        Zanneth 5y ago
FpUser 5y ago
Utter BS. There were no orders but recommendations only in regards to vaccines. I understand you realize the difference between the order and recommendation. Recommendation does not require compliance. And the burden was caused by lockdowns and complete absence of vaccines in Canada for a big while
- epgui 5y ago
  In the context of public health, "compliance" is a word that is used to refer to the percentage of people who follow expert advice. The same word, "compliance", is used to describe how many people take their prescribed pills properly and on schedule. The word doesn't only apply for "mandates" or "orders", and as you correctly pointed out, what ultimately matters is what people do.

by epgui 5y ago

Because the few who don’t comply to public health recommendations/orders are responsible for the greater share of the economic burden of disease, and this burden was totally preventable.

Zanneth 5y ago

That is not true at all. The greatest burden on the economy was the lockdowns and extreme countermeasures. People choosing not to get vaccinated may have caused unnecessary burden on the healthcare system, but to blame them for the struggling economy is just wrong.

epgui 5y ago
I am a life scientist, and with respect, you're flatly incorrect. The first-order costs of public health measures scale linearly, and the first-order costs of infectious diseases scale exponentially. Higher-order costs are at least comparable between the two, and I would argue much higher in the case of covid than in the case of lockdowns. (This being said, very few governments did lockdowns properly, and therefore almost every half-measure taken was ineffective and wasteful.)
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  As a heads up, your bio still says you are a software engineer at CircleCI.
  - epgui 5y ago
    That I am, but I have 12 years of post secondary education (and research experience) in life science, mostly in biochem.
- Zanneth 5y ago
  A vast majority of people who contract COVID recover without any treatment. Are you arguing that the minority who don't impose higher costs than locking down the entire country?
  - epgui 5y ago
    I can only guess what your question is (sorry, bad grammar), but I’d rather not guess. What exactly is the question?
  - mastersummoner 5y ago
    Over 900k dead in the US alone from covid. Sure, that's a minority, but can you really shrug your shoulders at that number and say it's just a minority, no big deal?
    - Zanneth 5y ago
      Did I say that it wasn’t a big deal? Nobody is denying that. I cringe at the number of people who die every year due to smoking, car accidents, etc. But I certainly wouldn’t recommend mandating anything that gets in the way of people taking those risks if they choose to.
      - epgui 5y ago
        Like seatbelt mandates, taxes on tobacco products, food safety regulation (preventing the importation of certain hazardous foods), environmental regulation, or any other sort of coercive action (either against individuals, against corporations, or against government itself) taken by government to protect people? It’s obviously a rhetorical question. I’d suggest that in all cases whether such mandates are appropriate depends on their proportionality relative to the harms they prevent.
      - davidgay 5y ago
        > Did I say that it wasn’t a big deal? Nobody is denying that. I cringe at the number of people who die every year due to smoking, car accidents, etc. Car accidents are 30-40k/year in the US, so 10% of covid. And the number of measures taken to reduce car accidents is extraordinary - age limits, compulsory driver's licenses, city design rules (roads, pedestrian crossings, etc, etc), speed limits, car construction regulations, compulsory insurance, and more. Given that, what's the appropriate level of regulation you suggest for covid?
_3u10 5y ago
Exactly. In Canada, $40,000 per person was spent on lockdowns most of which went to large companies posting record profits. Zilch on making an ICU room for every Canadian which is what that money could have bought should it have been spent responsibly.
- epgui 5y ago
  I am prepared to believe this number, but I think a citation would be very helpful here. In any case, have you bothered to also look up the economic burden of disease of covid-19 in Canada, in terms of QALYs and/or DALYs?
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Not familiar with either of those acronyms. It’s mentioned in Pierre Poliveres speech in parliament, here’s a link: https://youtu.be/cGbnjF3OdNQ https://youtu.be/cGbnjF3OdNQ
    - shakna 5y ago
      QALYs and DALYs are how you measure the burden of health. Quality-Adjusted Life Years, and Disability Affected Life Years, respectively. Without an understanding of them, you can't actually have an objective conversation about measuring the impact of any kind of illness.
      - _3u10 5y ago
        It’s pretty easy. Mandating people get vaccinated for diseases they already had is the height of dumb. That’s what this protest is about, does the govt have the right to force your employer to fire you if you don’t get vaccinated for a disease you already have.
        epgui 5y ago
        > Mandating people get vaccinated for diseases they already had is the height of dumb. Why do you believe this? Do you assume there is no benefit to doing so? Or do you assume that the harms outweigh the benefits? You'd be wrong on both counts. [1] [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01676-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01676-0
YZF 5y ago
What extreme countermeasures were done in BC? Closing Yoga studios for 4 weeks? Our economy has done pretty well during the pandemic. Is it all fun and games, nope. As a vaccinated person I flat out blame the people that didn't get vaccinated for making the last year much worse than it'd had to be. If we had better vaccine coverage we wouldn't need the restrictions that we had to put in place. They don't only put burden on the healthcare system (which they do), preventing people that need care from getting it (which they do), but they also mean the rest of us have to do more because they're not willing to do their share. I guess the bright side is that this is a tiny minority around these parts.
- epgui 5y ago
  For my part, while I do blame the unvaccinated at least in part, I place even greater blame on all the anti-mask and anti-social-distancing insanity we’ve seen in both Canada and the US. (In many cases these are the same groups of people, it seems... But I believe in being specific in my accusations.) While we developed vaccines at an impressive speed, governments royally screwed up the rollouts and logistics. Had we all done real proper lockdowns and taken public health recommendations seriously for a few weeks, and had governments been properly supportive (ie.: enabling) of that, our current vaccination uptake might have been enough to eradicate covid-19.
  - nathanaldensr 5y ago
    You can't possibly know these hypothetical would-have-been futures would have actually happened. You're not omnipotent.
    - epgui 5y ago
      You really don’t need to be omnipotent to know it. For months, Canada was hovering at an Rt just above 1.0. Very little more would have been required to tip the balance.
      - Zanneth 5y ago

FpUser 5y ago

Utter BS. There were no orders but recommendations only in regards to vaccines. I understand you realize the difference between the order and recommendation. Recommendation does not require compliance. And the burden was caused by lockdowns and complete absence of vaccines in Canada for a big while

epgui 5y ago
In the context of public health, "compliance" is a word that is used to refer to the percentage of people who follow expert advice. The same word, "compliance", is used to describe how many people take their prescribed pills properly and on schedule. The word doesn't only apply for "mandates" or "orders", and as you correctly pointed out, what ultimately matters is what people do.