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The number of comments on this that are just fine with wild authoritarian abuses like this "because vaccines are good" is astounding. People have such idealogic

The number of comments on this that are just fine with wild authoritarian abuses like this "because vaccines are good" is astounding. People have such idealogical myopia and are shocked and appalled when the same measures are used against their interests.

ComradePhil 5y ago
Considering that: - the vaccines are relatively new and long term effects are unknowable, - efficacy against the current variant questionable and - the current variant being mild enough even in unvaccinated populations it is perfectly reasonable to have a significant percentage of the population to be unvaccinated, just to have a control for long term studies and for backup in case horrible side-effects come up in the long run. The vaccine makers will try to argue otherwise and try to sell as much as possible, which is why the governments should have made strong commitments to make it strictly optional and prohibited any private attempts to make it mandatory. Instead, we have seen most world politicians act as if they were completely bought out by the vaccine manufacturers.
- Nursie 5y ago
  Or, you know, completely in line with the public health measures needed to end a pandemic. One or the other.
- lifeplusplus 5y ago
  the more unvaccinated, the more spread, more mutations, and more risk of continuing pandemic for years.
notacoward 5y ago
I'm seeing this on the second page, and I have yet to see a top-level comment that's in favor of this action. Most of them repeat near-identical points about how peaceful the protests have been, red herrings about Trudeau's stance re: India, and so on. The upvotes/downvotes seem to have swung heavily the same way at the same time. So I guess you don't need to act astounded any more.
- andrew_ 5y ago
  Or perhaps I authored the reply when the replies were heavily in favor. For someone with a history and karma to reflect it here, your cynicism and snark doesn't serve you well in this instance.
  - notacoward 5y ago
    I wasn't being snarky. I was merely pointing out that the situation had changed since you made your observation. No need to turn that into personal attacks.
    - andrew_ 5y ago
      > So I guess you don't need to act astounded any more. Consider that the verbiage chosen is very easily construed as snark, or at worst a personal affront. If you meant neither, better words could have been chosen.
data-ottawa 5y ago
I would argue that you’re misconstruing things. We Canadians had a fairly single issue election in the fall around vaccine mandates and the Liberal party won. The question is not “are mandates allowed” but “can a group be allowed to take cities hostage while trying to overthrow democratic rule.” The issuing of mandates was not even passed through fiat like an American executive order, this government is a minority government and at least one other party must support them to pass legislation. One man’s authoritarianism view can be another man’s view of the state protecting it’s people. There certainly should be limits, but our election was highly focused on determining those limits (whether you like the FPTP system or not).
- dmix 5y ago
  > 62.3% turnout > 32.62% voted for Trudeau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election
  - data-ottawa 5y ago
    Two things to consider: first, is this is Canada’s imperfect democratic system and I do wish for reform, but it’s what we have. The second is that it isn’t a fair comparison to look at just the Liberals and not consider the other parties mandate stances: “The People's Party was the only party opposing vaccine passports, mask mandates and lockdowns” The PPC received 4.94% of the vote, which implies more than 90% of voters chose a party which in some way supported mandates. The majority of vaccine mandates are provincial. The federal government has only issued them for workers in federally regulated industries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Canada#Vaccine_mandates_and_full_approval https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Canada... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_...
  - r00fus 5y ago
    The current ruling coalition includes the Bloc Quebecois and NDP, and they in total have > 50% of the electorate. Welcome to a parliamentary system where coalitions are often required. So yes, Trudeau has the will of the majority. Plus 2/3 of Canadians want the protest ended even with military force.
sib301 5y ago
Where is the abuse?
wyager 5y ago
The amount of object-level thinking on modern HN is disappointing but not surprising. Even as recently as 5-6 years ago you could generally rely on HN users being smart enough to at least comprehend the meta-level issues at stake; there no longer seems to be much awareness at this level.
- Hakashiro 5y ago
  Care to elaborate what you would have expected instead?

ComradePhil 5y ago

Considering that: - the vaccines are relatively new and long term effects are unknowable, - efficacy against the current variant questionable and - the current variant being mild enough even in unvaccinated populations it is perfectly reasonable to have a significant percentage of the population to be unvaccinated, just to have a control for long term studies and for backup in case horrible side-effects come up in the long run. The vaccine makers will try to argue otherwise and try to sell as much as possible, which is why the governments should have made strong commitments to make it strictly optional and prohibited any private attempts to make it mandatory. Instead, we have seen most world politicians act as if they were completely bought out by the vaccine manufacturers.

Nursie 5y ago
Or, you know, completely in line with the public health measures needed to end a pandemic. One or the other.
lifeplusplus 5y ago
the more unvaccinated, the more spread, more mutations, and more risk of continuing pandemic for years.

notacoward 5y ago

I'm seeing this on the second page, and I have yet to see a top-level comment that's in favor of this action. Most of them repeat near-identical points about how peaceful the protests have been, red herrings about Trudeau's stance re: India, and so on. The upvotes/downvotes seem to have swung heavily the same way at the same time. So I guess you don't need to act astounded any more.

andrew_ 5y ago
Or perhaps I authored the reply when the replies were heavily in favor. For someone with a history and karma to reflect it here, your cynicism and snark doesn't serve you well in this instance.
- notacoward 5y ago
  I wasn't being snarky. I was merely pointing out that the situation had changed since you made your observation. No need to turn that into personal attacks.
  - andrew_ 5y ago
    > So I guess you don't need to act astounded any more. Consider that the verbiage chosen is very easily construed as snark, or at worst a personal affront. If you meant neither, better words could have been chosen.

data-ottawa 5y ago

I would argue that you’re misconstruing things. We Canadians had a fairly single issue election in the fall around vaccine mandates and the Liberal party won. The question is not “are mandates allowed” but “can a group be allowed to take cities hostage while trying to overthrow democratic rule.” The issuing of mandates was not even passed through fiat like an American executive order, this government is a minority government and at least one other party must support them to pass legislation. One man’s authoritarianism view can be another man’s view of the state protecting it’s people. There certainly should be limits, but our election was highly focused on determining those limits (whether you like the FPTP system or not).

dmix 5y ago
> 62.3% turnout > 32.62% voted for Trudeau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election
- data-ottawa 5y ago
  Two things to consider: first, is this is Canada’s imperfect democratic system and I do wish for reform, but it’s what we have. The second is that it isn’t a fair comparison to look at just the Liberals and not consider the other parties mandate stances: “The People's Party was the only party opposing vaccine passports, mask mandates and lockdowns” The PPC received 4.94% of the vote, which implies more than 90% of voters chose a party which in some way supported mandates. The majority of vaccine mandates are provincial. The federal government has only issued them for workers in federally regulated industries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Canada#Vaccine_mandates_and_full_approval https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Canada... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_mandates_...
- r00fus 5y ago
  The current ruling coalition includes the Bloc Quebecois and NDP, and they in total have > 50% of the electorate. Welcome to a parliamentary system where coalitions are often required. So yes, Trudeau has the will of the majority. Plus 2/3 of Canadians want the protest ended even with military force.

sib301 5y ago

Where is the abuse?

wyager 5y ago

The amount of object-level thinking on modern HN is disappointing but not surprising. Even as recently as 5-6 years ago you could generally rely on HN users being smart enough to at least comprehend the meta-level issues at stake; there no longer seems to be much awareness at this level.

Hakashiro 5y ago
Care to elaborate what you would have expected instead?