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True, but the problem, at least in Canada, isn't the spread from/to the remaining 20%, but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. The spread from

True, but the problem, at least in Canada, isn't the spread from/to the remaining 20%, but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. The spread from them is a small part of it too, but not the primary factor. Canada is kind of in a difficult place, because refusing medical treatment is an even bigger taboo then forcing vaccination. But the publicly funded medical system is having to pay a high price both in cost and in capacity due to that remaining 20%. This is why people are looking for ways to reduce that. Refusing medical care is not currently seen as a viable option, thus vaccine incentives are being explored, like restricting what someone can do if unvaccinated.

ROTMetro 5y ago
Those restrictions being earning a living or shopping.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  There are no vaccine mandates for shopping, it's masks only. "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    > "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare. And, relevant for this discussion, also trucking across borders.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      There is no freedom of movement across borders. There is plenty of work for truckers inside of Canada.
henrikschroder 5y ago
> but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. In Ontario, today, over half the ICU cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, almost 75% of the hospital cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, 70% of reported cases are among the vaccinated. The idea that the unvaccinated are somehow driving, causing, or are to blame for the pandemic is completely wrong. For most of January, in Ontario, the rate of infection was higher among the vaccinated than among he unvaccinated! The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Even if you could magically force-vaccinate everyone today, you would only reduce the strain on the healthcare system a tiny amount. And yet people support governments forcing people to get vaccinated? https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data
- Nursie 5y ago
  In Ontario, today, around 80% of the population are vaccinated, so those 20% are making up half the ICU load. You would then expect something like a 40% drop in ICU occupancy from covid if they were vaccinated. > The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Except it does.
- fishidns 5y ago
  47% of all ICUs and 33% of all hospitalizations considering only 15% of the all age population is unvaccinated is pretty high. I really don't understand how you can say the rate of infection is higher in vaccinated using this data? It points to the complete opposite, with the smallest percentage of population 15% accounting 2x to 3x more in hospitalization and ICU. And the data gets worse if you look only at adults. I'm not saying unvaccinated are causing the pandemic, but they are currently the reason for the continued restrictions. It's because we fear that without restrictions they'd create a sudden surge in cases needing hospitalization and ICUs which the healthcare system might not be able to handle. That's what people mean when they say that the unvaccinated are preventing us to lift restrictions and to make the pandemic endemic. Asking to both be unvaccinated, and for all restrictions to be removed, but also asking to be promptly and freely treated if you catch COVID and need to be hospitalized or put in an ICU is a nice thing to demand, but it's not realistically feasible. Based on the data, it is likely to create a surge to the healthcare system that it couldn't handle.
  - henrikschroder 5y ago
    > I really don't understand how you can say the rate of infection is higher in vaccinated using this data? It isn't right now, but it was in Ontario up until January 27th. Scroll down to the section "COVID-19 cases by vaccination status", and look at the graph. Note: This data is true but misleading! Antivaxxers are claiming that this is evidence that the vaccines make you more susceptible to infection, but that is probably not true, because all of this data is missing information about previous infection. The unvaccinated cohort is more likely to have natural immunity than the vaccinated one, which skews the data. > It points to the complete opposite, with the smallest percentage of population 15% accounting 2x to 3x more in hospitalization and ICU. You started the paragraph talking about infections, and then switched to talking about hospitalizations. The rate of hospitalization and ICU patients is higher among the unvaccinated, yes. And at the same time, the rate of cases was higher among the vaccinated, in January, in Ontario. > It's because we fear that without restrictions they'd create a sudden surge in cases needing hospitalization and ICUs which the healthcare system might not be able to handle. Yes, but that fear was completely unfounded, as evidenced by the peak numbers. Canada passed the Omicron peak in cases over a month ago. And again, you're blaming a minority of infected, a minority of hospital and ICU patients. The majority of patients are vaccinated, and yet you assign zero blame to them. > Based on the data, it is likely to create a surge to the healthcare system that it couldn't handle. Denmark lifted all restrictions two weeks ago, despite having the highest number of cases/capita in all of Europe. They already had much less restrictions in place then, than Canada has now. Denmark is fine. Canada will be fine. The Omicron wave has followed the same pattern in every US state, despite wildly different amounts of restrictions. No-one was overwhelmed, and now the wave is over. There might be future waves, in the fall, because the virus is highly seasonal, and they will be even milder, because there will be even more immunity among the population by then. It'll be fine. We'll be fine.

ROTMetro 5y ago

Those restrictions being earning a living or shopping.

Ensorceled 5y ago
There are no vaccine mandates for shopping, it's masks only. "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  > "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare. And, relevant for this discussion, also trucking across borders.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    There is no freedom of movement across borders. There is plenty of work for truckers inside of Canada.

henrikschroder 5y ago

> but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. In Ontario, today, over half the ICU cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, almost 75% of the hospital cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, 70% of reported cases are among the vaccinated. The idea that the unvaccinated are somehow driving, causing, or are to blame for the pandemic is completely wrong. For most of January, in Ontario, the rate of infection was higher among the vaccinated than among he unvaccinated! The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Even if you could magically force-vaccinate everyone today, you would only reduce the strain on the healthcare system a tiny amount. And yet people support governments forcing people to get vaccinated? https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data

Nursie 5y ago
In Ontario, today, around 80% of the population are vaccinated, so those 20% are making up half the ICU load. You would then expect something like a 40% drop in ICU occupancy from covid if they were vaccinated. > The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Except it does.
fishidns 5y ago
47% of all ICUs and 33% of all hospitalizations considering only 15% of the all age population is unvaccinated is pretty high. I really don't understand how you can say the rate of infection is higher in vaccinated using this data? It points to the complete opposite, with the smallest percentage of population 15% accounting 2x to 3x more in hospitalization and ICU. And the data gets worse if you look only at adults. I'm not saying unvaccinated are causing the pandemic, but they are currently the reason for the continued restrictions. It's because we fear that without restrictions they'd create a sudden surge in cases needing hospitalization and ICUs which the healthcare system might not be able to handle. That's what people mean when they say that the unvaccinated are preventing us to lift restrictions and to make the pandemic endemic. Asking to both be unvaccinated, and for all restrictions to be removed, but also asking to be promptly and freely treated if you catch COVID and need to be hospitalized or put in an ICU is a nice thing to demand, but it's not realistically feasible. Based on the data, it is likely to create a surge to the healthcare system that it couldn't handle.
- henrikschroder 5y ago
  > I really don't understand how you can say the rate of infection is higher in vaccinated using this data? It isn't right now, but it was in Ontario up until January 27th. Scroll down to the section "COVID-19 cases by vaccination status", and look at the graph. Note: This data is true but misleading! Antivaxxers are claiming that this is evidence that the vaccines make you more susceptible to infection, but that is probably not true, because all of this data is missing information about previous infection. The unvaccinated cohort is more likely to have natural immunity than the vaccinated one, which skews the data. > It points to the complete opposite, with the smallest percentage of population 15% accounting 2x to 3x more in hospitalization and ICU. You started the paragraph talking about infections, and then switched to talking about hospitalizations. The rate of hospitalization and ICU patients is higher among the unvaccinated, yes. And at the same time, the rate of cases was higher among the vaccinated, in January, in Ontario. > It's because we fear that without restrictions they'd create a sudden surge in cases needing hospitalization and ICUs which the healthcare system might not be able to handle. Yes, but that fear was completely unfounded, as evidenced by the peak numbers. Canada passed the Omicron peak in cases over a month ago. And again, you're blaming a minority of infected, a minority of hospital and ICU patients. The majority of patients are vaccinated, and yet you assign zero blame to them. > Based on the data, it is likely to create a surge to the healthcare system that it couldn't handle. Denmark lifted all restrictions two weeks ago, despite having the highest number of cases/capita in all of Europe. They already had much less restrictions in place then, than Canada has now. Denmark is fine. Canada will be fine. The Omicron wave has followed the same pattern in every US state, despite wildly different amounts of restrictions. No-one was overwhelmed, and now the wave is over. There might be future waves, in the fall, because the virus is highly seasonal, and they will be even milder, because there will be even more immunity among the population by then. It'll be fine. We'll be fine.