4 ms·

I am not the OP, but hold a similar stance, primarily for the reason that the mandates represent a "the last 20% takes 80% of the time" inefficiency in what sho

by 015a 5y ago

I am not the OP, but hold a similar stance, primarily for the reason that the mandates represent a "the last 20% takes 80% of the time" inefficiency in what should be a global effort to dampen the pandemic, and the massive resources invested in first world countries to claw every last hundredth of a percent of the population to get vaccinated could be invested to see much greater effect in second & third world countries.

throwaway48292 5y ago
(UK) At some point it started to feel like stirring division for its own sake, since everyone will be exposed to the virus regardless of whether we get another 0.1% vaccinated. Luckily it seems to be calming down now.
fishidns 5y ago
True, but the problem, at least in Canada, isn't the spread from/to the remaining 20%, but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. The spread from them is a small part of it too, but not the primary factor. Canada is kind of in a difficult place, because refusing medical treatment is an even bigger taboo then forcing vaccination. But the publicly funded medical system is having to pay a high price both in cost and in capacity due to that remaining 20%. This is why people are looking for ways to reduce that. Refusing medical care is not currently seen as a viable option, thus vaccine incentives are being explored, like restricting what someone can do if unvaccinated.
- ROTMetro 5y ago
  Those restrictions being earning a living or shopping.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    There are no vaccine mandates for shopping, it's masks only. "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare.
    - PeterisP 5y ago
      > "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare. And, relevant for this discussion, also trucking across borders.
      - Ensorceled 5y ago
        There is no freedom of movement across borders. There is plenty of work for truckers inside of Canada.
- henrikschroder 5y ago
  > but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. In Ontario, today, over half the ICU cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, almost 75% of the hospital cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, 70% of reported cases are among the vaccinated. The idea that the unvaccinated are somehow driving, causing, or are to blame for the pandemic is completely wrong. For most of January, in Ontario, the rate of infection was higher among the vaccinated than among he unvaccinated! The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Even if you could magically force-vaccinate everyone today, you would only reduce the strain on the healthcare system a tiny amount. And yet people support governments forcing people to get vaccinated? https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data
  - Nursie 5y ago
    In Ontario, today, around 80% of the population are vaccinated, so those 20% are making up half the ICU load. You would then expect something like a 40% drop in ICU occupancy from covid if they were vaccinated. > The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Except it does.
  - fishidns 5y ago
    47% of all ICUs and 33% of all hospitalizations considering only 15% of the all age population is unvaccinated is pretty high. I really don't understand how you can say the rate of infection is higher in vaccinated using this data? It points to the complete opposite, with the smallest percentage of population 15% accounting 2x to 3x more in hospitalization and ICU. And the data gets worse if you look only at adults. I'm not saying unvaccinated are causing the pandemic, but they are currently the reason for the continued restrictions. It's because we fear that without restrictions they'd create a sudden surge in cases needing hospitalization and ICUs which the healthcare system might not be able to handle. That's what people mean when they say that the unvaccinated are preventing us to lift restrictions and to make the pandemic endemic. Asking to both be unvaccinated, and for all restrictions to be removed, but also asking to be promptly and freely treated if you catch COVID and need to be hospitalized or put in an ICU is a nice thing to demand, but it's not realistically feasible. Based on the data, it is likely to create a surge to the healthcare system that it couldn't handle.

by 015a 5y ago

throwaway48292 5y ago

(UK) At some point it started to feel like stirring division for its own sake, since everyone will be exposed to the virus regardless of whether we get another 0.1% vaccinated. Luckily it seems to be calming down now.

fishidns 5y ago

True, but the problem, at least in Canada, isn't the spread from/to the remaining 20%, but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. The spread from them is a small part of it too, but not the primary factor. Canada is kind of in a difficult place, because refusing medical treatment is an even bigger taboo then forcing vaccination. But the publicly funded medical system is having to pay a high price both in cost and in capacity due to that remaining 20%. This is why people are looking for ways to reduce that. Refusing medical care is not currently seen as a viable option, thus vaccine incentives are being explored, like restricting what someone can do if unvaccinated.

ROTMetro 5y ago
Those restrictions being earning a living or shopping.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  There are no vaccine mandates for shopping, it's masks only. "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    > "Earning a living" is only an issue in certain occupations such as healthcare. And, relevant for this discussion, also trucking across borders.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      There is no freedom of movement across borders. There is plenty of work for truckers inside of Canada.
henrikschroder 5y ago
> but the strain and cost to the public healthcare system. In Ontario, today, over half the ICU cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, almost 75% of the hospital cases are vaccinated. In Ontario, today, 70% of reported cases are among the vaccinated. The idea that the unvaccinated are somehow driving, causing, or are to blame for the pandemic is completely wrong. For most of January, in Ontario, the rate of infection was higher among the vaccinated than among he unvaccinated! The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Even if you could magically force-vaccinate everyone today, you would only reduce the strain on the healthcare system a tiny amount. And yet people support governments forcing people to get vaccinated? https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data
- Nursie 5y ago
  In Ontario, today, around 80% of the population are vaccinated, so those 20% are making up half the ICU load. You would then expect something like a 40% drop in ICU occupancy from covid if they were vaccinated. > The case for vaccine mandates or vaccine passes make absolutely no sense when you look at the actual data, actual reality. Except it does.
- fishidns 5y ago
  47% of all ICUs and 33% of all hospitalizations considering only 15% of the all age population is unvaccinated is pretty high. I really don't understand how you can say the rate of infection is higher in vaccinated using this data? It points to the complete opposite, with the smallest percentage of population 15% accounting 2x to 3x more in hospitalization and ICU. And the data gets worse if you look only at adults. I'm not saying unvaccinated are causing the pandemic, but they are currently the reason for the continued restrictions. It's because we fear that without restrictions they'd create a sudden surge in cases needing hospitalization and ICUs which the healthcare system might not be able to handle. That's what people mean when they say that the unvaccinated are preventing us to lift restrictions and to make the pandemic endemic. Asking to both be unvaccinated, and for all restrictions to be removed, but also asking to be promptly and freely treated if you catch COVID and need to be hospitalized or put in an ICU is a nice thing to demand, but it's not realistically feasible. Based on the data, it is likely to create a surge to the healthcare system that it couldn't handle.