7 ms·

Locking bank accounts at all WITHOUT A TRIAL, seems dystopian. That's a lot of power for the state to have to be able to reach into some ones bank accounts with

Locking bank accounts at all WITHOUT A TRIAL, seems dystopian. That's a lot of power for the state to have to be able to reach into some ones bank accounts with no due process. Edit: changed AT ALL to without a trial because on second thought resized it's possible that there are some legit uses for freezing bank accounts.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
WesternWind 5y ago
Blocking bridges with trucks to protest public health members seems dystopian.
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  Clearly not everyone agrees that , what some consider medical tyranny, is a good thing.
  - WesternWind 5y ago
    Thank goodness I'm not trying to speak for everyone then, just for myself, because it doesn't seem like tyranny.
    - edmcnulty101 5y ago
      Do you believe forcing women to wear burkhas is tyrannical? The forcing of wearing masks is a tyrannical action, whether it's for a 'good cause' or not. Some people view the ends do not justify tyrannical means.
      - ric2b 5y ago
        Tyrannical means " Unjust or oppressive governmental power.", so the justification for the mandate is important, not just the fact that a mandate exists. A mandate with a good justification is authoritarian but not tyrannical.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  - nwmcsween 5y ago
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
    - Zpalmtree 5y ago
      It's ok when we do it!!!
    - gruez 5y ago
      Translation: "If it's for a Just Cause, then anything goes. If it's for a Unjust Cause, then we should arrest you at the slightest infraction of the law and punish you to the fullest extent of the law".
      - jsjsbdkj 5y ago
        This is hilariously backwards. Black protestors in Ottawa are arrested all the time. These people have been paralyzing a massive part of downtown and violating the law for 3 weeks and they're finally now seeing some consequences. Also, yes, some protests are moral and some aren't. If there's a Nazi march shutting down main street I have no objections to shutting it down. It's not logically inconsistent to say that people shitting in the streets, having drunken discos and harassing people day and night aren't really "protesting" at this point.
        gruez 5y ago
        >This is hilariously backwards. Black protestors in Ottawa are arrested all the time. I was making fun of the parent poster's normative theories, not describing how police in ottawa actually behave. >These people have been paralyzing a massive part of downtown and violating the law for 3 weeks and they're finally now seeing some consequences. I'm sure you could say the same for hong kong protesters. I'm going to go on a limb that flooding the entire island with millions of protesters is pretty "paralyzing", if not more. >Also, yes, some protests are moral and some aren't. If there's a Nazi march shutting down main street I have no objections to shutting it down. Sounds like you're agreeing with my previous comment? >It's not logically inconsistent to say that people shitting in the streets, having drunken discos and harassing people day and night aren't really "protesting" at this point. that sounds awfully like the CHAZ.
mattnewton 5y ago
I agree. I have no idea how Canada's legal system works but I would not trust the american executive branch with this power without the authorization of a judge. Even then it feels too easily abused, but you can already do a lot worse with a judge's sign off and there are certainly cases where the power makes sense. Is this something that has precedent in Canada?
- mod50ack 5y ago
  Yes. Trudeau's father did the same thing (look up "Just watch me"). Anyway, there's no such thing as separation of powers in Canada. It's called Parliamentary Sovereignty.
  - jsjsbdkj 5y ago
    I mean, Trudeau's father called in the military because a terrorist group kidnapped a government minister and set off multiple bombs. This is pretty small potatoes compared to the FLQ. We don't have the concept of co-equal branches of government, but the judiciary can declare acts of parliament to violate the charter of rights and freedoms. The Emergencies Act explicitly says it does not supercede any constitutional rights.
    - bremac 5y ago
      The legislature in my home province is closed to the public due to threats: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/security-risk-closes-nova-scotia-legislature-to-visitors-1.6347222 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/security-risk-clo... Several MPs and MLAs have received suspicious packages: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/mike-kelloway-suspicious-package-1.6346944 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/mike-kelloway-sus... "Protesters" tried to break into a federal MP's constituency office: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/covid-19-protests-politicians-extremism-threats-1.6349254 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/covid-19-protests... And that's just Nova Scotia. This isn't as bad as the October Crisis, but it's still quite serious. It's not small potatoes.
akerl_ 5y ago
Seizing funds from criminals to restrict their ability to perpetrate and profit from crime is a tool used by law enforcement in essentially every country, and has been happening for a long time. There’s plenty of areas of this that are misused (see things like civil asset forfeiture), but the overarching strategy of freezing bank accounts isn’t novel or dystopian. Edit: it’s a bit sneaky to change “AT ALL” to “WITHOUT A TRIAL” without calling out the change.
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  Edited!
- pomdapi 5y ago
  Yeah, but in most countries there is due process in front of a judge to do that. You can't just have the executive decide they can do that using pure administrative action to seize property. Also, you generally also have to prove in a court of law there was a crime before you can do anything at all. The US civilian asset forfeiture (and now in Canada too, it seems) are actually quite unique in that regard outside of maybe China (not sure even you can do that there anymore), and at most couple other dystopian very authoritarian nations.
  - akerl_ 5y ago
    As has now been called out by the person I replied to, when I typed my reply, they said seizing funds “at all” was dystopian. They’ve now amended the comment to specify without the involvement of the judiciary.
    - pomdapi 5y ago
      Ok, gotcha. Guess we were all a little asymmetrical with our "reply" button pushes.
  - hluska 5y ago
    Note that this is not asset forfeiture. The order only authorizes financially institutions to temporarily freeze accounts if they suspect they’re being used to fund illegal blockades. They can temporarily freeze accounts without a court order without any fear of legal liability. That’s it. It’s a time out, not a forfeiture. The Emergency Act is powerful, but this invocation isn’t that powerful.
markdown 5y ago
Wait till you hear about civil forfeiture in the United States.
- ed25519FUUU 5y ago
  So a consistent view is to be anti-civil forfeiture and anti-freezing bank accounts. I think that’s largely the sentiment expressed here.
JamisonM 5y ago
Locking bank accounts without a trial happens every single day in every democracy in the world. Any legal process where money is suspected of being dirty but is allowed to flow freely through the banking system until the conclusion of a trial would be completely useless - I believe this is fairly obvious if you think about it. Due process should be quicker, I wish more people would vote based on making the courts more responsive, but unfortunately no one does.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

WesternWind 5y ago

Blocking bridges with trucks to protest public health members seems dystopian.

edmcnulty101 5y ago
Clearly not everyone agrees that , what some consider medical tyranny, is a good thing.
- WesternWind 5y ago
  Thank goodness I'm not trying to speak for everyone then, just for myself, because it doesn't seem like tyranny.
  - edmcnulty101 5y ago
    Do you believe forcing women to wear burkhas is tyrannical? The forcing of wearing masks is a tyrannical action, whether it's for a 'good cause' or not. Some people view the ends do not justify tyrannical means.
    - ric2b 5y ago
      Tyrannical means " Unjust or oppressive governmental power.", so the justification for the mandate is important, not just the fact that a mandate exists. A mandate with a good justification is authoritarian but not tyrannical.
encryptluks2 5y ago
- nwmcsween 5y ago
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
  - Zpalmtree 5y ago
    It's ok when we do it!!!
  - gruez 5y ago
    Translation: "If it's for a Just Cause, then anything goes. If it's for a Unjust Cause, then we should arrest you at the slightest infraction of the law and punish you to the fullest extent of the law".
    - jsjsbdkj 5y ago
      This is hilariously backwards. Black protestors in Ottawa are arrested all the time. These people have been paralyzing a massive part of downtown and violating the law for 3 weeks and they're finally now seeing some consequences. Also, yes, some protests are moral and some aren't. If there's a Nazi march shutting down main street I have no objections to shutting it down. It's not logically inconsistent to say that people shitting in the streets, having drunken discos and harassing people day and night aren't really "protesting" at this point.
      - gruez 5y ago
        >This is hilariously backwards. Black protestors in Ottawa are arrested all the time. I was making fun of the parent poster's normative theories, not describing how police in ottawa actually behave. >These people have been paralyzing a massive part of downtown and violating the law for 3 weeks and they're finally now seeing some consequences. I'm sure you could say the same for hong kong protesters. I'm going to go on a limb that flooding the entire island with millions of protesters is pretty "paralyzing", if not more. >Also, yes, some protests are moral and some aren't. If there's a Nazi march shutting down main street I have no objections to shutting it down. Sounds like you're agreeing with my previous comment? >It's not logically inconsistent to say that people shitting in the streets, having drunken discos and harassing people day and night aren't really "protesting" at this point. that sounds awfully like the CHAZ.

mattnewton 5y ago

I agree. I have no idea how Canada's legal system works but I would not trust the american executive branch with this power without the authorization of a judge. Even then it feels too easily abused, but you can already do a lot worse with a judge's sign off and there are certainly cases where the power makes sense. Is this something that has precedent in Canada?

mod50ack 5y ago
Yes. Trudeau's father did the same thing (look up "Just watch me"). Anyway, there's no such thing as separation of powers in Canada. It's called Parliamentary Sovereignty.
- jsjsbdkj 5y ago
  I mean, Trudeau's father called in the military because a terrorist group kidnapped a government minister and set off multiple bombs. This is pretty small potatoes compared to the FLQ. We don't have the concept of co-equal branches of government, but the judiciary can declare acts of parliament to violate the charter of rights and freedoms. The Emergencies Act explicitly says it does not supercede any constitutional rights.
  - bremac 5y ago
    The legislature in my home province is closed to the public due to threats: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/security-risk-closes-nova-scotia-legislature-to-visitors-1.6347222 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/security-risk-clo... Several MPs and MLAs have received suspicious packages: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/mike-kelloway-suspicious-package-1.6346944 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/mike-kelloway-sus... "Protesters" tried to break into a federal MP's constituency office: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/covid-19-protests-politicians-extremism-threats-1.6349254 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/covid-19-protests... And that's just Nova Scotia. This isn't as bad as the October Crisis, but it's still quite serious. It's not small potatoes.

akerl_ 5y ago

Seizing funds from criminals to restrict their ability to perpetrate and profit from crime is a tool used by law enforcement in essentially every country, and has been happening for a long time. There’s plenty of areas of this that are misused (see things like civil asset forfeiture), but the overarching strategy of freezing bank accounts isn’t novel or dystopian. Edit: it’s a bit sneaky to change “AT ALL” to “WITHOUT A TRIAL” without calling out the change.

edmcnulty101 5y ago
Edited!
pomdapi 5y ago
Yeah, but in most countries there is due process in front of a judge to do that. You can't just have the executive decide they can do that using pure administrative action to seize property. Also, you generally also have to prove in a court of law there was a crime before you can do anything at all. The US civilian asset forfeiture (and now in Canada too, it seems) are actually quite unique in that regard outside of maybe China (not sure even you can do that there anymore), and at most couple other dystopian very authoritarian nations.
- akerl_ 5y ago
  As has now been called out by the person I replied to, when I typed my reply, they said seizing funds “at all” was dystopian. They’ve now amended the comment to specify without the involvement of the judiciary.
  - pomdapi 5y ago
    Ok, gotcha. Guess we were all a little asymmetrical with our "reply" button pushes.
- hluska 5y ago
  Note that this is not asset forfeiture. The order only authorizes financially institutions to temporarily freeze accounts if they suspect they’re being used to fund illegal blockades. They can temporarily freeze accounts without a court order without any fear of legal liability. That’s it. It’s a time out, not a forfeiture. The Emergency Act is powerful, but this invocation isn’t that powerful.

markdown 5y ago

Wait till you hear about civil forfeiture in the United States.

ed25519FUUU 5y ago
So a consistent view is to be anti-civil forfeiture and anti-freezing bank accounts. I think that’s largely the sentiment expressed here.

JamisonM 5y ago

Locking bank accounts without a trial happens every single day in every democracy in the world. Any legal process where money is suspected of being dirty but is allowed to flow freely through the banking system until the conclusion of a trial would be completely useless - I believe this is fairly obvious if you think about it. Due process should be quicker, I wish more people would vote based on making the courts more responsive, but unfortunately no one does.