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I’m not in Ottowa and I feel like I’m not sure what to believe here. On one hand, if the protests really were peaceful, I do not believe the government should

by tyleo 5y ago

I’m not in Ottowa and I feel like I’m not sure what to believe here. On one hand, if the protests really were peaceful, I do not believe the government should shut them down. On the other hand, I’ve heard the protests have caused millions in trade to be shut down which I would not consider a peaceful act. If some non-citizen entity shut down millions in trade, I don’t think it would be viewed as peaceful. Should the right to peaceful protest include the right to halt trade at this scale? Are the reports of halted trade overblown?

sojournerc 5y ago
> On the other hand, I’ve heard the protests have caused millions in trade to be shut down which I would not consider a peaceful act. Since when did economic disruption become violence? I just don't understand. It makes zero sense to redefine violence to mean "something that inconveniences me, that I disagree with", Where does that end? When next the liberals want to protest something - an oil pipeline for instance (economic disruption) - would that also be called violence?
- mmastrac 5y ago
  > When next the liberals want to protest something - an oil pipeline for instance (economic disruption) - would that also be called violence? Just so it's clear, there were environmental protests that _were_ cleared out for the same economic disruption reasons. There were concerns that it was not the right thing to do and too aggressive at the time, but I believe in retrospect that many consider it to have been the right course of action. https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-wet-suwet-en-protests-arrests-1.4805620 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/what-you-need-to-know-about-th...
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Over a quarter of trade between the US and Canada goes between Detroit and Windsor, so the scale hasn't been overblown but there's a question as to why is blocking trade off the table? Seems like another case of things being ok if they impact humans but as soon as corporations are inconvenienced, the gloves have to come off and the humans treated as terrorists. If the humans would go back to their gated free speech zones, then everything would be good?
- dbliss 5y ago
  Would you not agree that there are people behind the economic damage? Just calling it hurting corporations dehumanizes the automotive works that have been put out of work due to the temporary plant closures that the blockade has caused.
  - salawat 5y ago
    The thing is, if you don't disrupt the chain, status quo is maintained. ...This is also why JIT logistics is incredibly fragile. Our economic sects have been shirking the inherent risk of long tail disruptive events for the better part of my life. There is a certain schadenfreude to seeing the come-uppances.
- rpeden 5y ago
  The border blockade quickly put thousands out auto workers out of work. Let that happen for long and you'll quickly have thousands of workers who need to feed their families converging in the blockade to take matters into their own hands. It's not just the immediate impact, either. Canadian manufacturers who sell to the U.S. (which is pretty much all of them) are constantly fighting against 'buy American' legislation that makes it more likely companies will shift production out of Ontario - and trade disruptions make it even harder to compete if Canada looks like a flaky trading partner that can't even keep its own border open. And manufacturing workers know what's at stake, and things would get ugly quickly. So it's not just inconveniencing corporations - it's threatening the short and long term viability of tend of thousands of jobs and the people working those jobs aren't likely to take it laying down. So blocking trade isn't off the table, but anyone who does it had better expect the government to treat it as a public order emergency because if they don't, it will very quickly become a public order emergency on its own.
rubatuga 5y ago
Well according to the protesters, the Canadian and provincial governments have also cost the economy millions of dollars in losses due to their lockdowns and restrictions.
sleepingadmin 5y ago
>On one hand, if the protests really were peaceful, I do not believe the government should shut them down. Our charter right is peaceful assembly. If the protests were not peaceful, the police would be right to shut them down. The reason the Ottawa police cannot do anything for weeks is because they are peaceful. >On the other hand, I’ve heard the protests have caused millions in trade to be shut down which I would not consider a peaceful act. That would be an incorrect characterization. The bridge blockade did not touch the tunnel. https://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2022/02/12/Detroit-Windsor-Tunnel-offers-drivers-smooth-travel-option-during-blockade/stories/202202120051 https://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2022/02/12/Detroit-... Furthermore, a blockade that isn't violent... isn't violence. >If some non-citizen entity shut down millions in trade, I don’t think it would be viewed as peaceful. Yes Trudeau has alleged that these blockades/occupations/sieges are in fact the US government. Even using the name occupation is a international definition. Military occupations would certainly justify the measures being taken by the Canadian governments. I even agree, if the USA has a military occupation over Canada. Trudeau is right to do what he has done. That's not what is happening. Trudeau is looking to squash peaceful political protests and the propaganda of calling the protesters racists and white supremacists is insane. >Should the right to peaceful protest include the right to halt trade at this scale? Are the reports of halted trade overblown? If the protests 'are at this scale' absolutely. Though yes, clearly the detroit tunnel was open. They even had 1 lane open for the bridge. It's completely overblown. The correct action for the governments to do when protesters are blockading isn't to send in the guns and tear them down. It's to open conversation with the peaceful protesters. Liberal MP Joel Lightbound is a smart man. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-mp-politicization-pandemic-1.6343730 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-mp-politicization-p... the protesters just need a roadmap to no restrictions and human rights being returned. Trudeau has taken this action because there is no roadmap. He wishes to keep the totalitarian state.

by tyleo 5y ago

sojournerc 5y ago

> On the other hand, I’ve heard the protests have caused millions in trade to be shut down which I would not consider a peaceful act. Since when did economic disruption become violence? I just don't understand. It makes zero sense to redefine violence to mean "something that inconveniences me, that I disagree with", Where does that end? When next the liberals want to protest something - an oil pipeline for instance (economic disruption) - would that also be called violence?

mmastrac 5y ago
> When next the liberals want to protest something - an oil pipeline for instance (economic disruption) - would that also be called violence? Just so it's clear, there were environmental protests that _were_ cleared out for the same economic disruption reasons. There were concerns that it was not the right thing to do and too aggressive at the time, but I believe in retrospect that many consider it to have been the right course of action. https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-wet-suwet-en-protests-arrests-1.4805620 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/what-you-need-to-know-about-th...

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Over a quarter of trade between the US and Canada goes between Detroit and Windsor, so the scale hasn't been overblown but there's a question as to why is blocking trade off the table? Seems like another case of things being ok if they impact humans but as soon as corporations are inconvenienced, the gloves have to come off and the humans treated as terrorists. If the humans would go back to their gated free speech zones, then everything would be good?

dbliss 5y ago
Would you not agree that there are people behind the economic damage? Just calling it hurting corporations dehumanizes the automotive works that have been put out of work due to the temporary plant closures that the blockade has caused.
- salawat 5y ago
  The thing is, if you don't disrupt the chain, status quo is maintained. ...This is also why JIT logistics is incredibly fragile. Our economic sects have been shirking the inherent risk of long tail disruptive events for the better part of my life. There is a certain schadenfreude to seeing the come-uppances.
rpeden 5y ago
The border blockade quickly put thousands out auto workers out of work. Let that happen for long and you'll quickly have thousands of workers who need to feed their families converging in the blockade to take matters into their own hands. It's not just the immediate impact, either. Canadian manufacturers who sell to the U.S. (which is pretty much all of them) are constantly fighting against 'buy American' legislation that makes it more likely companies will shift production out of Ontario - and trade disruptions make it even harder to compete if Canada looks like a flaky trading partner that can't even keep its own border open. And manufacturing workers know what's at stake, and things would get ugly quickly. So it's not just inconveniencing corporations - it's threatening the short and long term viability of tend of thousands of jobs and the people working those jobs aren't likely to take it laying down. So blocking trade isn't off the table, but anyone who does it had better expect the government to treat it as a public order emergency because if they don't, it will very quickly become a public order emergency on its own.

rubatuga 5y ago

Well according to the protesters, the Canadian and provincial governments have also cost the economy millions of dollars in losses due to their lockdowns and restrictions.

sleepingadmin 5y ago

>On one hand, if the protests really were peaceful, I do not believe the government should shut them down. Our charter right is peaceful assembly. If the protests were not peaceful, the police would be right to shut them down. The reason the Ottawa police cannot do anything for weeks is because they are peaceful. >On the other hand, I’ve heard the protests have caused millions in trade to be shut down which I would not consider a peaceful act. That would be an incorrect characterization. The bridge blockade did not touch the tunnel. https://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2022/02/12/Detroit-Windsor-Tunnel-offers-drivers-smooth-travel-option-during-blockade/stories/202202120051 https://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2022/02/12/Detroit-... Furthermore, a blockade that isn't violent... isn't violence. >If some non-citizen entity shut down millions in trade, I don’t think it would be viewed as peaceful. Yes Trudeau has alleged that these blockades/occupations/sieges are in fact the US government. Even using the name occupation is a international definition. Military occupations would certainly justify the measures being taken by the Canadian governments. I even agree, if the USA has a military occupation over Canada. Trudeau is right to do what he has done. That's not what is happening. Trudeau is looking to squash peaceful political protests and the propaganda of calling the protesters racists and white supremacists is insane. >Should the right to peaceful protest include the right to halt trade at this scale? Are the reports of halted trade overblown? If the protests 'are at this scale' absolutely. Though yes, clearly the detroit tunnel was open. They even had 1 lane open for the bridge. It's completely overblown. The correct action for the governments to do when protesters are blockading isn't to send in the guns and tear them down. It's to open conversation with the peaceful protesters. Liberal MP Joel Lightbound is a smart man. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-mp-politicization-pandemic-1.6343730 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-mp-politicization-p... the protesters just need a roadmap to no restrictions and human rights being returned. Trudeau has taken this action because there is no roadmap. He wishes to keep the totalitarian state.