7 ms·

This is definately going to back fire on him and his administration. There weren't any major incidence of violence or rioting. They got the bridge cleared. He s

This is definately going to back fire on him and his administration. There weren't any major incidence of violence or rioting. They got the bridge cleared. He should've left it at that and let it fizzle out.

dblohm7 5y ago
There have been multiple incidents of protesters using large vehicles to smash through police barricades. What do you call that?
- tomohawk 5y ago
  - tptacek 5y ago
    Not political violence, per the point being made upthread. Seems unproductive to litigate beyond that distinction.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      Unproductive though it may be, consider the (extreme) hypothetical of a government arresting someone and forcing a needle into their arm, administering a biological agent against the recipient's will. I believe that would satisfy a literal (if unconventional) definition of "political violence". So, what's left to litigate is whether the threat/coercion of "you will lose your job unless you let us do this to you" makes the definition no longer apply. I would say that (hypothetical) refugees fleeing a government-orchestrated pogrom are still victims of "political violence" even though they had the "choice" of leaving the country (and their job); but perhaps some would argue they are merely choosing to avoid a mandate passed by their democratic government.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        A government-orchestrated pogrom would, obviously, be political violence. There is no government-orchestrated pogrom at issue in this story.
        dane-pgp 5y ago
        I agree with you on both of those statements. Unfortunately that doesn't resolve the thorny issue of whether forced or coerced vaccination can count as political violence, but perhaps this thread will not uncover a unanimously accepted answer to that contentious question.
- voisin 5y ago
  Source? I have not seen anything about this on the news.
  - dblohm7 5y ago
    https://bc.ctvnews.ca/convoy-protesters-break-through-surrey-rcmp-barricade-with-military-vehicle-as-others-march-to-u-s-border-on-foot-1.5779120 https://bc.ctvnews.ca/convoy-protesters-break-through-surrey... "At about 8 p.m., police said a large farm tractor and a semi-truck attempted to ram a police vehicle. The officer in the vehicle was able to reposition and avoid the collision." https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-protest-weapons-ammunition-seized/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-pro...
    - sacrosancty 5y ago
      "smash through" is not consistent with "avoid the collision". I don't see any evidence of your claim of smashing through. Did you embellish the story in your head and only realized you'd been fooling yourself when somebody asked for evidence? Isn't that a red flag that you may have been misled in many other aspects of this topic?
      - bawolff 5y ago
        I think most people would describe forcibly going through a barricade as smashing through regardless of whether or not the pther guy moved.
        sacrosancty 5y ago
        Now you're claiming it was "forcible"? What does that mean? With the application of force? It's not forcible if there's no contact. You really did make a misleading claim about smashing through barricades which shows you are either trying to mislead people with false information or have been misled yourself.
        5y ago
- toolz 5y ago
  well back when government buildings were being burned down and people were getting shot - it was commonly and correctly referred to as "mostly peaceful protesting"
  - dc-programmer 5y ago
    In Canada?
    - toolz 5y ago
      yes, they called them mostly peaceful protests in canada too - at least in canadian media, can't speak to polling canadians
    - tlear 5y ago
      Yeah Montreal getting looted, statues being destroyed the usual. It did not get to the US level of "peacefulness" thankfully
    - ldiracdelta 5y ago
      In The Narrative.
- Tiktaalik 5y ago
  The presence of the vehicles themselves is an act of intimidation. This could be a reason why Ottawa police have been so timid. Not hard at all to drive forward and injure and kill someone. There's video footage from the Vancouver protest that shows a truck attempting this, and the counter protestor attempting to block the truck had to step aside. This novel use of trucks for protest has been enormously effective and I expect we'll see this replicated all over from now on. Whereas in the past it took a mass movement of thousand upon thousands to block a bridge, now a few dozen people in trucks can do the same thing. Trucks enable a protest to be incredibly paralyzing with a fraction of the amount of protestors.
MattGaiser 5y ago
> Two-thirds of Canadians support military force to end Ottawa protests: poll https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/12/two-thirds-of-canadians-support-military-force-to-end-ottawa-protests-poll/ https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/12/two-thirds-of-canadia... The current approach seems to be a lot more mild than what the public would accept.
- spiderice 5y ago
  Yeah, we heard you the first time. No need to copy and paste your comment.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Polls like this are usually wrong, just look at the polls regarding the 2016 US elections.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    1. They weren't wrong nationally. They just didn't get the state by state breakdown correct. You have to remember that polls show a numerical outcome, not necessarily how it will filter through the various rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia... 2. Even those that were off were off by just a few percentage points. This is a 2 to 1 ratio.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, using 2016 to argue polls are massively off is basically admitting you don't understand what you're talking about.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
s5300 5y ago
I feel like there were a decent amount of people, blocking various places, that said the only way this was ending/they were being moved was in a violent shootout. Do you understand how much $ worth of mobilization has to happen to safely attempt to deal with people who say they’re going to start shooting at you in a city? It’s a lot of time, money, & other resources. You can choose to cognitive dissonance this fact, but it doesn’t change it. IMO, Canada didn’t use as much force as they should’ve to remove people who literally told them they were going to fight to the death instead of moving. Pretty big threat.
geenew 5y ago
The capital city is still essentially lawless, and the local police force either refuses or is unable to fix the situation. This lets the feds use their own police to enforce existing law, for example.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dblohm7 5y ago

There have been multiple incidents of protesters using large vehicles to smash through police barricades. What do you call that?

tomohawk 5y ago
- tptacek 5y ago
  Not political violence, per the point being made upthread. Seems unproductive to litigate beyond that distinction.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    Unproductive though it may be, consider the (extreme) hypothetical of a government arresting someone and forcing a needle into their arm, administering a biological agent against the recipient's will. I believe that would satisfy a literal (if unconventional) definition of "political violence". So, what's left to litigate is whether the threat/coercion of "you will lose your job unless you let us do this to you" makes the definition no longer apply. I would say that (hypothetical) refugees fleeing a government-orchestrated pogrom are still victims of "political violence" even though they had the "choice" of leaving the country (and their job); but perhaps some would argue they are merely choosing to avoid a mandate passed by their democratic government.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      A government-orchestrated pogrom would, obviously, be political violence. There is no government-orchestrated pogrom at issue in this story.
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        I agree with you on both of those statements. Unfortunately that doesn't resolve the thorny issue of whether forced or coerced vaccination can count as political violence, but perhaps this thread will not uncover a unanimously accepted answer to that contentious question.
voisin 5y ago
Source? I have not seen anything about this on the news.
- dblohm7 5y ago
  https://bc.ctvnews.ca/convoy-protesters-break-through-surrey-rcmp-barricade-with-military-vehicle-as-others-march-to-u-s-border-on-foot-1.5779120 https://bc.ctvnews.ca/convoy-protesters-break-through-surrey... "At about 8 p.m., police said a large farm tractor and a semi-truck attempted to ram a police vehicle. The officer in the vehicle was able to reposition and avoid the collision." https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-protest-weapons-ammunition-seized/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-pro...
  - sacrosancty 5y ago
    "smash through" is not consistent with "avoid the collision". I don't see any evidence of your claim of smashing through. Did you embellish the story in your head and only realized you'd been fooling yourself when somebody asked for evidence? Isn't that a red flag that you may have been misled in many other aspects of this topic?
    - bawolff 5y ago
      I think most people would describe forcibly going through a barricade as smashing through regardless of whether or not the pther guy moved.
      - sacrosancty 5y ago
        Now you're claiming it was "forcible"? What does that mean? With the application of force? It's not forcible if there's no contact. You really did make a misleading claim about smashing through barricades which shows you are either trying to mislead people with false information or have been misled yourself.
        5y ago
toolz 5y ago
well back when government buildings were being burned down and people were getting shot - it was commonly and correctly referred to as "mostly peaceful protesting"
- dc-programmer 5y ago
  In Canada?
  - toolz 5y ago
    yes, they called them mostly peaceful protests in canada too - at least in canadian media, can't speak to polling canadians
  - tlear 5y ago
    Yeah Montreal getting looted, statues being destroyed the usual. It did not get to the US level of "peacefulness" thankfully
  - ldiracdelta 5y ago
    In The Narrative.
Tiktaalik 5y ago
The presence of the vehicles themselves is an act of intimidation. This could be a reason why Ottawa police have been so timid. Not hard at all to drive forward and injure and kill someone. There's video footage from the Vancouver protest that shows a truck attempting this, and the counter protestor attempting to block the truck had to step aside. This novel use of trucks for protest has been enormously effective and I expect we'll see this replicated all over from now on. Whereas in the past it took a mass movement of thousand upon thousands to block a bridge, now a few dozen people in trucks can do the same thing. Trucks enable a protest to be incredibly paralyzing with a fraction of the amount of protestors.

MattGaiser 5y ago

> Two-thirds of Canadians support military force to end Ottawa protests: poll https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/12/two-thirds-of-canadians-support-military-force-to-end-ottawa-protests-poll/ https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/12/two-thirds-of-canadia... The current approach seems to be a lot more mild than what the public would accept.

spiderice 5y ago
Yeah, we heard you the first time. No need to copy and paste your comment.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
encryptluks2 5y ago
Polls like this are usually wrong, just look at the polls regarding the 2016 US elections.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  1. They weren't wrong nationally. They just didn't get the state by state breakdown correct. You have to remember that polls show a numerical outcome, not necessarily how it will filter through the various rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia... 2. Even those that were off were off by just a few percentage points. This is a 2 to 1 ratio.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, using 2016 to argue polls are massively off is basically admitting you don't understand what you're talking about.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago

s5300 5y ago

I feel like there were a decent amount of people, blocking various places, that said the only way this was ending/they were being moved was in a violent shootout. Do you understand how much $ worth of mobilization has to happen to safely attempt to deal with people who say they’re going to start shooting at you in a city? It’s a lot of time, money, & other resources. You can choose to cognitive dissonance this fact, but it doesn’t change it. IMO, Canada didn’t use as much force as they should’ve to remove people who literally told them they were going to fight to the death instead of moving. Pretty big threat.

geenew 5y ago

The capital city is still essentially lawless, and the local police force either refuses or is unable to fix the situation. This lets the feds use their own police to enforce existing law, for example.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]