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I don't think GP was suggesting that there's anything specific wrong with GFM, but more that the way github encourages READMEs to be used (by auto-rendering all

I don't think GP was suggesting that there's anything specific wrong with GFM, but more that the way github encourages READMEs to be used (by auto-rendering all READMEs to HTML) creates an abstraction that shadows the readable-as-text goals of markdown.

Jtsummers 5y ago
> readable-as-text goals of markdown. Markdown was meant to be rendered, not left as plaintext (for viewing, at least as a primary use-case). It's name is a punny joke, but it's a lightweight markup language that was meant to be a lightweight way to write formatted text that would be rendered as formatted HTML. GFM seems in keeping with this for the most part.
- laumars 5y ago
  > Markdown was meant to be rendered, not left as plaintext Now it’s not. Markdown was intend to be legible in plain text but visually emulate rendered text. The rendering stuff came later but even then it still had an emphasis on plain text readability. There is a reason it was chosen for README, INSTALL etc documents in project repositories that are (or, at least until relatively recently in computing history, were) traditionally read in the command line.
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    Are you sure about this part: > The rendering stuff came later Here is the original announcement I was able to track down: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001189 http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001189 > For months I’ve been working with John Gruber on a new project. The idea was to make writing simple web pages, and especially weblog entries, as easy as writing an email, by allowing you to use much the same syntax and converting it automatically into HTML. Seems that HTML rendering was there from day 1.
    - laumars 5y ago
      Markdown is based on a really old nerd convention of stylising plain text. Things like /italics/ and *bold* predate MD by great many years. I was using some of markdown’s semantics even in the 90s. This is what Aaron meant when he said: > as easy as writing an email, by allowing you to use much the same syntax …in that link you’ve posted. Heck, even that quote token I used above (the greater than prefix) is a really old convention used in emails since probably before Aaron was even born. It’s also worth noting that when markdown was released there were plenty of other plain text mark ups around (there’s some not even mentioned in that blog post too) but both Greg and Aaron point out that markdown is more readable in plain text and that’s a key decision behind it.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  > Markdown was meant to be rendered, not left as plaintext (for viewing, at least as a primary use-case). [...] meant to be a lightweight way […] No, that was not the primary design goal. > The overriding design goal for Markdown’s formatting syntax is to make it as readable as possible. The idea is that a Markdown-formatted document should be publishable as-is, as plain text, without looking like it’s been marked up with tags or formatting instructions. While Markdown’s syntax has been influenced by several existing text-to-HTML filters, the single biggest source of inspiration for Markdown’s syntax is the format of plain text email. https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/ https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    > Markdown is a text-to-HTML conversion tool for web writers. Markdown allows you to write using an easy-to-read, easy-to-write plain text format, then convert it to structurally valid XHTML (or HTML). Literally the first paragraph from your link. I'm having trouble reconciling that first paragraph with the idea that it wasn't meant to be rendered as HTML.
    - daptaq 5y ago
      The "easy-to-read [...] plain text format" indicates to me that the idea was that markdown should be readable in plaintext form too. The ability to convert it to HTML is a different goal?
      - Jtsummers 5y ago
        Maybe? My point, though, is that from day 1 it was meant to be rendered as HTML. So what Github does with it (rendering README.md files) is perfectly compatible with that original intent. Just like everyone who used md->html renderers for their blogs or whatever other content. If you just want plaintext, then you don't need markdown or any other markup. Just a plaintext file, like, I don't know, a README file. Don't throw .md (or .org in my case) on it, and it won't get rendered.

Jtsummers 5y ago

> readable-as-text goals of markdown. Markdown was meant to be rendered, not left as plaintext (for viewing, at least as a primary use-case). It's name is a punny joke, but it's a lightweight markup language that was meant to be a lightweight way to write formatted text that would be rendered as formatted HTML. GFM seems in keeping with this for the most part.

laumars 5y ago
> Markdown was meant to be rendered, not left as plaintext Now it’s not. Markdown was intend to be legible in plain text but visually emulate rendered text. The rendering stuff came later but even then it still had an emphasis on plain text readability. There is a reason it was chosen for README, INSTALL etc documents in project repositories that are (or, at least until relatively recently in computing history, were) traditionally read in the command line.
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  Are you sure about this part: > The rendering stuff came later Here is the original announcement I was able to track down: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001189 http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001189 > For months I’ve been working with John Gruber on a new project. The idea was to make writing simple web pages, and especially weblog entries, as easy as writing an email, by allowing you to use much the same syntax and converting it automatically into HTML. Seems that HTML rendering was there from day 1.
  - laumars 5y ago
    Markdown is based on a really old nerd convention of stylising plain text. Things like /italics/ and *bold* predate MD by great many years. I was using some of markdown’s semantics even in the 90s. This is what Aaron meant when he said: > as easy as writing an email, by allowing you to use much the same syntax …in that link you’ve posted. Heck, even that quote token I used above (the greater than prefix) is a really old convention used in emails since probably before Aaron was even born. It’s also worth noting that when markdown was released there were plenty of other plain text mark ups around (there’s some not even mentioned in that blog post too) but both Greg and Aaron point out that markdown is more readable in plain text and that’s a key decision behind it.
avgcorrection 5y ago
> Markdown was meant to be rendered, not left as plaintext (for viewing, at least as a primary use-case). [...] meant to be a lightweight way […] No, that was not the primary design goal. > The overriding design goal for Markdown’s formatting syntax is to make it as readable as possible. The idea is that a Markdown-formatted document should be publishable as-is, as plain text, without looking like it’s been marked up with tags or formatting instructions. While Markdown’s syntax has been influenced by several existing text-to-HTML filters, the single biggest source of inspiration for Markdown’s syntax is the format of plain text email. https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/ https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  > Markdown is a text-to-HTML conversion tool for web writers. Markdown allows you to write using an easy-to-read, easy-to-write plain text format, then convert it to structurally valid XHTML (or HTML). Literally the first paragraph from your link. I'm having trouble reconciling that first paragraph with the idea that it wasn't meant to be rendered as HTML.
  - daptaq 5y ago
    The "easy-to-read [...] plain text format" indicates to me that the idea was that markdown should be readable in plaintext form too. The ability to convert it to HTML is a different goal?
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      Maybe? My point, though, is that from day 1 it was meant to be rendered as HTML. So what Github does with it (rendering README.md files) is perfectly compatible with that original intent. Just like everyone who used md->html renderers for their blogs or whatever other content. If you just want plaintext, then you don't need markdown or any other markup. Just a plaintext file, like, I don't know, a README file. Don't throw .md (or .org in my case) on it, and it won't get rendered.