6 ms·

I didn't downvote you, but you're using extreme language like "torture" (I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with torture but this sort of verbal

by blast 5y ago

I didn't downvote you, but you're using extreme language like "torture" (I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with torture but this sort of verbal escalation is not objective) and the only in-depth reporting I've seen on the arson thing makes it seem completely debunked: https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 (or https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 - I'm not sure what the right link is). That's a biased source, but I can't find anything comparably factual that is taking the allegation seriously. At a minimum, it's not fair to repeat words like "arson" as if they are established facts when at best they are highly disputable.

dekerta 5y ago
It's absolutely torture. I don't live in Ottawa, but I was eating at a restaurant near the trucker protest that sprung up in my city two weeks ago, and I nearly lost my mind just hearing the horns blaring for an hour straight. I can't even imagine what the poor people in Ottawa are going through.
purephase 5y ago
They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people that live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for over two weeks due to this. I have friends and family affected by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes torture if you don't have the resources to up and leave your residence for days at a time in order to sleep.
- kbelder 5y ago
  How are the protestors sleeping?
  - purephase 5y ago
    You do know that they're in vehicles that they're moving in and out of the city, correct? It's not like they're all just parked in one spot and staying there the entire time. Unlike people with fixed addresses, they can just up and move to a quiet part of the city to sleep, and then drive back after.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  - cf100clunk 5y ago
    No, a dog barking 16-18 hours per day is illegal almost everywhere in Canada and the person(s) responsible face fines, at the least.
    - moralestapia 5y ago
      - cf100clunk 5y ago
        A line in a Traveling Wilburys song goes "everything is legal as long as you don't get caught." That's what came to mind as I read your reply, which tacitly agrees with my parent comment.
        pvg 5y ago
        It's specifically about Jersey, a sentiment older than the song and one that also pops up in Hamilton.
        moralestapia 5y ago
        That's a nice quote, thanks. I'm arguing a slightly different thing, that authorities are quite aware and tolerant of the situation in many cases, so they don't care to do much.
  - purephase 5y ago
    - moralestapia 5y ago
      Yes, I am. Noise pollution has the same effect on people regardless of the source. You pretty much proved my point by diminishing the one particular source of noise that you personally don't consider "as bad".
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people that live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for over two weeks due to this. I have friends and family affected by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes torture if you don't have the resources to up and leave your residence for days at a time in order to sleep. Are earplugs not a thing in Canada? Calling honking torture is ridiculous hyperbole. That word should be reserved for the extremely serious kinds of acts it's normally used to describe, lest it become effectively meaningless. Words themselves don't have any power, and if you try to harness the power of a concept by misusing a word that refers to it, you just cause the word's definition to shift and to weaken its association to the concept (potentially making that concept much harder to access and refer to).
  - endemic 5y ago
    Earplugs just deaden sound, they don't eliminate it.
  - throw10920 5y ago
    I challenge you to find earplugs that can be worn 24h a day without any physical discomfort, provide 60dB of attenuation across a wide range of frequencies (these horns probably span low 100's of Hz to mid kHz), and are reasonably inexpensive. Even if you could find such beasts (which I don't think you can), then you have the problem that you effectively can't use your hearing. You thought that social interactions were hard with a mask? Imagine not being able to use your hearing at all. (yes, 60 dB is necessary because that's how much you'll need in order to sleep - the human ear has an incredibly large dynamic range and even 30 dB_SPL conversations are enough to keep some people awake for hours) As it stands, many of the residents near these protests are being subjected to low-level sleep deprivation, which is literally torture (as in, used as such by organizations who actually want to extract information or confessions from people). To clarify - it's not honking that's torture, it's sustained honking at a duration and intensity that will cause sleep deprivation and other psychological damage. Completely independently of the reason that these people are protesting - this particular means is not humane.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
cf100clunk 5y ago
> this sort of verbal escalation is not objective Objectively, the sonic onslaught of their constantly blaring truck horns is equal in effect to well-known psychological warfare tactics. It is fair and accurate to call it torture in this context.
- rpeden 5y ago
  Even worse, it wasn't just truck horns. There were several trucks driving around with train horns installed. And plenty of the apartments in Centretown are right up against the street. I don't think making 80+ decibels of noise 10 feet from people's windows is even an okay way to protest, no matter who you are or what your cause is. I used to live in this neighbourhood, right by Somerset and Metcalfe. Protests happened all the time. Some of them were anti-government, even. And none of them launched this kind of sustained assault against innocent citizens. I get the sense a lot of them think they're sticking it to the liberal elite, or something like that. But really - Centretown is (or was when I lived there, at least) one of the more affordable parts of Ottawa.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    80? I had heard in some cases it'd been measured at up to 140dB.
    - rpeden 5y ago
      I wouldn't doubt that for the train horns, especially outdoors. ~80db inside an apartment is what I heard personally from someone I trust who lives there still, so that's usually what I go with.
eldaisfish 5y ago
i would challenge you to test your opinion by spending even seven days living in downtown Ottawa. You would then seriously reconsider my labelling of 18 hours of illegally loud truck horns as torture as being "extreme language".
FpUser 5y ago
>"...I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with torture..." You could stop right there. It is torture. Especially when you consider old frail people.
FireBeyond 5y ago
Weeks on end of horns outside your window are absolutely torture. They are demonstrably linked to mental health issues. It's not a verbal escalation. We are talking about people who have literally attached train and ship horns to vehicles and are using them incessantly. That passes beyond "nuisance". Extreme situations can utilize extreme language.

by blast 5y ago

dekerta 5y ago

It's absolutely torture. I don't live in Ottawa, but I was eating at a restaurant near the trucker protest that sprung up in my city two weeks ago, and I nearly lost my mind just hearing the horns blaring for an hour straight. I can't even imagine what the poor people in Ottawa are going through.

purephase 5y ago

They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people that live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for over two weeks due to this. I have friends and family affected by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes torture if you don't have the resources to up and leave your residence for days at a time in order to sleep.

kbelder 5y ago
How are the protestors sleeping?
- purephase 5y ago
  You do know that they're in vehicles that they're moving in and out of the city, correct? It's not like they're all just parked in one spot and staying there the entire time. Unlike people with fixed addresses, they can just up and move to a quiet part of the city to sleep, and then drive back after.
moralestapia 5y ago
- cf100clunk 5y ago
  No, a dog barking 16-18 hours per day is illegal almost everywhere in Canada and the person(s) responsible face fines, at the least.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    - cf100clunk 5y ago
      A line in a Traveling Wilburys song goes "everything is legal as long as you don't get caught." That's what came to mind as I read your reply, which tacitly agrees with my parent comment.
      - pvg 5y ago
        It's specifically about Jersey, a sentiment older than the song and one that also pops up in Hamilton.
      - moralestapia 5y ago
        That's a nice quote, thanks. I'm arguing a slightly different thing, that authorities are quite aware and tolerant of the situation in many cases, so they don't care to do much.
- purephase 5y ago
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    Yes, I am. Noise pollution has the same effect on people regardless of the source. You pretty much proved my point by diminishing the one particular source of noise that you personally don't consider "as bad".
tablespoon 5y ago
> They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people that live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for over two weeks due to this. I have friends and family affected by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes torture if you don't have the resources to up and leave your residence for days at a time in order to sleep. Are earplugs not a thing in Canada? Calling honking torture is ridiculous hyperbole. That word should be reserved for the extremely serious kinds of acts it's normally used to describe, lest it become effectively meaningless. Words themselves don't have any power, and if you try to harness the power of a concept by misusing a word that refers to it, you just cause the word's definition to shift and to weaken its association to the concept (potentially making that concept much harder to access and refer to).
- endemic 5y ago
  Earplugs just deaden sound, they don't eliminate it.
- throw10920 5y ago
  I challenge you to find earplugs that can be worn 24h a day without any physical discomfort, provide 60dB of attenuation across a wide range of frequencies (these horns probably span low 100's of Hz to mid kHz), and are reasonably inexpensive. Even if you could find such beasts (which I don't think you can), then you have the problem that you effectively can't use your hearing. You thought that social interactions were hard with a mask? Imagine not being able to use your hearing at all. (yes, 60 dB is necessary because that's how much you'll need in order to sleep - the human ear has an incredibly large dynamic range and even 30 dB_SPL conversations are enough to keep some people awake for hours) As it stands, many of the residents near these protests are being subjected to low-level sleep deprivation, which is literally torture (as in, used as such by organizations who actually want to extract information or confessions from people). To clarify - it's not honking that's torture, it's sustained honking at a duration and intensity that will cause sleep deprivation and other psychological damage. Completely independently of the reason that these people are protesting - this particular means is not humane.
  - tablespoon 5y ago

cf100clunk 5y ago

> this sort of verbal escalation is not objective Objectively, the sonic onslaught of their constantly blaring truck horns is equal in effect to well-known psychological warfare tactics. It is fair and accurate to call it torture in this context.

rpeden 5y ago
Even worse, it wasn't just truck horns. There were several trucks driving around with train horns installed. And plenty of the apartments in Centretown are right up against the street. I don't think making 80+ decibels of noise 10 feet from people's windows is even an okay way to protest, no matter who you are or what your cause is. I used to live in this neighbourhood, right by Somerset and Metcalfe. Protests happened all the time. Some of them were anti-government, even. And none of them launched this kind of sustained assault against innocent citizens. I get the sense a lot of them think they're sticking it to the liberal elite, or something like that. But really - Centretown is (or was when I lived there, at least) one of the more affordable parts of Ottawa.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  80? I had heard in some cases it'd been measured at up to 140dB.
  - rpeden 5y ago
    I wouldn't doubt that for the train horns, especially outdoors. ~80db inside an apartment is what I heard personally from someone I trust who lives there still, so that's usually what I go with.

eldaisfish 5y ago

i would challenge you to test your opinion by spending even seven days living in downtown Ottawa. You would then seriously reconsider my labelling of 18 hours of illegally loud truck horns as torture as being "extreme language".

FpUser 5y ago

>"...I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with torture..." You could stop right there. It is torture. Especially when you consider old frail people.

FireBeyond 5y ago

Weeks on end of horns outside your window are absolutely torture. They are demonstrably linked to mental health issues. It's not a verbal escalation. We are talking about people who have literally attached train and ship horns to vehicles and are using them incessantly. That passes beyond "nuisance". Extreme situations can utilize extreme language.