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>there is no violence, and no obvious danger While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local residents, there was attempted arson, there is cont

>there is no violence, and no obvious danger While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local residents, there was attempted arson, there is continued intimidation and harassment of those wearing masks, there is intimidation of visible minorities, there are attacks on businesses.... Is that enough to convince you that the situation is out of hand and than stricter action is needed? The protestors haven't complied with not honking. Please, please be careful with how you frame this. There was severe inaction and dangerous incompetence displayed by Ottawa police but please don't spin this as the federal government overstepping. Edit - within seconds of posting, this is downvoted. Truly a shameful display by the folks here.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
> Edit - within seconds of posting, this is downvoted. Truly a shameful display by the folks here. Please don't comment on downvotes like this; it's not useful.
- throw10920 5y ago
  Complaining about downvoting is straight-up against the HN guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html : > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. And in this case, it's more than a little manipulative. "Truly a shameful display by the folks here."
ctoth 5y ago
> While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local residents Why did you use the word torture here? Torture is a well-defined word with an accepted meaning. Do you feel that it is appropriate? Or are you looking for an emotionally-loaded reaction? Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has actually been tortured.
- BeefWellington 5y ago
  > Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has actually been tortured. If they did it for a week straight after you'd lodged several noise complaints and had the police go nowhere, yeah, I think that would qualify. It's certainly not the most severe type of torture but intentionally depriving a person of sleep and attempting to damage their eardrums qualifies. If your loud college neighbours were setting off a train horn outside your building, repeatedly, I think you'd expect them to be handled by the police (if not arrested) pretty immediately. If your loud college neighbours were assaulting people in the streets, shouting death and rape threats at you, you'd probably consider them violent.[1] Another post of mine has many more links if you're interested. I'm not sure how much actual violence is required for a protest to become violent. Is it just that nobody's been killed yet? That seems to be what everyone is waiting for and I sincerely hope we don't get there (thankfully it looks like things may be defusing today). [1]: https://globalnews.ca/news/8594809/covid-freedom-convoy-ottawa-masks/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8594809/covid-freedom-convoy-otta...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- cf100clunk 5y ago
  If a person or group knowingly deploys sonic psychological warfare techniques upon innocent people, they are torturers. In this context, the constant blaring of truck horns is deliberate and not meant in kindness or frivolity. The negative psychological effects upon the local residents are now well known and well documented.
  - ctoth 5y ago
    Okay but the thing about torture is, in order to be torture you must be prevented from leaving the situation. Are they literally trapping people in their homes? No. You just really really don't like them and so are trying to delegitimize their protest with use of loaded language. Torture means things like having your skin pealed off or your fingernails removed. Torture means things like being imprisoned and repeatedly being made to feel as though you are drowning. Constant honking must certainly be annoying! But as far as I'm aware, protests are supposed to be uncomfortable and annoying. This is not torture. It's like terrorist. The word terrorist now means somebody did a thing that the government doesn't like. Are we going to do this same thing with torture? Because I'm not here for it.
blast 5y ago
I didn't downvote you, but you're using extreme language like "torture" (I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with torture but this sort of verbal escalation is not objective) and the only in-depth reporting I've seen on the arson thing makes it seem completely debunked: https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 (or https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 - I'm not sure what the right link is). That's a biased source, but I can't find anything comparably factual that is taking the allegation seriously. At a minimum, it's not fair to repeat words like "arson" as if they are established facts when at best they are highly disputable.
- dekerta 5y ago
  It's absolutely torture. I don't live in Ottawa, but I was eating at a restaurant near the trucker protest that sprung up in my city two weeks ago, and I nearly lost my mind just hearing the horns blaring for an hour straight. I can't even imagine what the poor people in Ottawa are going through.
- purephase 5y ago
  They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people that live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for over two weeks due to this. I have friends and family affected by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes torture if you don't have the resources to up and leave your residence for days at a time in order to sleep.
  - kbelder 5y ago
    How are the protestors sleeping?
    - purephase 5y ago
      You do know that they're in vehicles that they're moving in and out of the city, correct? It's not like they're all just parked in one spot and staying there the entire time. Unlike people with fixed addresses, they can just up and move to a quiet part of the city to sleep, and then drive back after.
fallingknife 5y ago
Do you have a source on any of that?
- jeromegv 5y ago
  If you have family or friends in Ottawa, you know. Here's an interview with a MD in downtown Ottawa, speaking of her and her staff at a medical clinic getting harassed in the street for wearing a mask. https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/1080354245/health-care-workers-in-ottawa-are-being-harassed-protesters-against-covid-19-man https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/1080354245/health-care-worker...
  - adolph 5y ago
    I read the story. The MD does not claim she or her staff has been harassed. Her one claim is "And a lot of people have been harassed, have been told to take their masks off." The MD also claims "I would say that a huge 18-wheeler is not a peaceful thing to have in the middle of your city" which is weird since large trucks are a primary and pervasive mode of transporting goods nearly everywhere. The story also does not disclose that the interviewee is an Ontario public employee, essentially a spokesperson for the government position, which is in opposition to the protestors.
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      > The MD also claims "I would say that a huge 18-wheeler is not a peaceful thing to have in the middle of your city" which is weird since large trucks are a primary and pervasive mode of transporting goods nearly everywhere. I must have missed where large trucks sit for days on end, engine running, horns blaring endlessly as part of their "useful public utility". > The story also does not disclose that the interviewee is an Ontario public employee, essentially a spokesperson for the government position, which is in opposition to the protestors. This is blatant bias on your part. Doctors employed by the state to provide healthcare are not government spokespeople, however you're trying to spin it here.
      - 5y ago
purephase 5y ago
I've said this before. There's a strong libertarian bent to HN and I'm not surprised if there's a large contingent of this site that actively supports the convoy. There's people here that are strong supports of Peter Thiel, if that's any indication of where their sympathies lie. But, most of them are not residents of Ottawa, and the lived experiences of people in that city, particurlarly those who have had run ins with the protesters, or struggled through the 16-18 hours / day of honking, had to walk around or be harrassed by them, see the awful imagery of Trump, Confederate etc. flags being waved around, the yellow star morons etc. cannot simply be dismissed as bad or inaccurate media. A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and, even in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police handled it properly, but question the admonition levied against the Ottawa police. The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as city council. They sat on their hands while allowing this to spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim or blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today). It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact on the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof that the so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out to be. Especially if you're white.
- blindmute 5y ago
  Making one city a bit uncomfortable temporarily is well worth creating justice for an entire country permanently. Sucks for Ottowans, but the truckers are doing the right thing morally.
- j_walter 5y ago
  >A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and, even in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police handled it properly, but question the admonition levied against the Ottawa police. >The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as city council. They sat on their hands while allowing this to spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim or blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today). >It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact on the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof that the so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out to be. Especially if you're white. This is really not much different than how Portland handled the BLM protests in 2020. 100 straight nights of extreme protests with violence against police and federal buildings. Only difference is this is during the night and many neighborhoods were terrorized as it moved from downtown. Not much media coverage of this other than conservative journalist Andy Ngo who has himself been violently targeted for simply recording and publishing video of what is happening.
99_00 5y ago
Looking at the live streams, I see visible minorities going to the protests and supporting the truckers and the atmosphere seems festive and celebratory more than anything else.

wizzwizz4 5y ago

> Edit - within seconds of posting, this is downvoted. Truly a shameful display by the folks here. Please don't comment on downvotes like this; it's not useful.

throw10920 5y ago
Complaining about downvoting is straight-up against the HN guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html : > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. And in this case, it's more than a little manipulative. "Truly a shameful display by the folks here."

ctoth 5y ago

> While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local residents Why did you use the word torture here? Torture is a well-defined word with an accepted meaning. Do you feel that it is appropriate? Or are you looking for an emotionally-loaded reaction? Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has actually been tortured.

BeefWellington 5y ago
> Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has actually been tortured. If they did it for a week straight after you'd lodged several noise complaints and had the police go nowhere, yeah, I think that would qualify. It's certainly not the most severe type of torture but intentionally depriving a person of sleep and attempting to damage their eardrums qualifies. If your loud college neighbours were setting off a train horn outside your building, repeatedly, I think you'd expect them to be handled by the police (if not arrested) pretty immediately. If your loud college neighbours were assaulting people in the streets, shouting death and rape threats at you, you'd probably consider them violent.[1] Another post of mine has many more links if you're interested. I'm not sure how much actual violence is required for a protest to become violent. Is it just that nobody's been killed yet? That seems to be what everyone is waiting for and I sincerely hope we don't get there (thankfully it looks like things may be defusing today). [1]: https://globalnews.ca/news/8594809/covid-freedom-convoy-ottawa-masks/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8594809/covid-freedom-convoy-otta...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
cf100clunk 5y ago
If a person or group knowingly deploys sonic psychological warfare techniques upon innocent people, they are torturers. In this context, the constant blaring of truck horns is deliberate and not meant in kindness or frivolity. The negative psychological effects upon the local residents are now well known and well documented.
- ctoth 5y ago
  Okay but the thing about torture is, in order to be torture you must be prevented from leaving the situation. Are they literally trapping people in their homes? No. You just really really don't like them and so are trying to delegitimize their protest with use of loaded language. Torture means things like having your skin pealed off or your fingernails removed. Torture means things like being imprisoned and repeatedly being made to feel as though you are drowning. Constant honking must certainly be annoying! But as far as I'm aware, protests are supposed to be uncomfortable and annoying. This is not torture. It's like terrorist. The word terrorist now means somebody did a thing that the government doesn't like. Are we going to do this same thing with torture? Because I'm not here for it.

blast 5y ago

I didn't downvote you, but you're using extreme language like "torture" (I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with torture but this sort of verbal escalation is not objective) and the only in-depth reporting I've seen on the arson thing makes it seem completely debunked: https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 (or https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 - I'm not sure what the right link is). That's a biased source, but I can't find anything comparably factual that is taking the allegation seriously. At a minimum, it's not fair to repeat words like "arson" as if they are established facts when at best they are highly disputable.

dekerta 5y ago
It's absolutely torture. I don't live in Ottawa, but I was eating at a restaurant near the trucker protest that sprung up in my city two weeks ago, and I nearly lost my mind just hearing the horns blaring for an hour straight. I can't even imagine what the poor people in Ottawa are going through.
purephase 5y ago
They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people that live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for over two weeks due to this. I have friends and family affected by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes torture if you don't have the resources to up and leave your residence for days at a time in order to sleep.
- kbelder 5y ago
  How are the protestors sleeping?
  - purephase 5y ago
    You do know that they're in vehicles that they're moving in and out of the city, correct? It's not like they're all just parked in one spot and staying there the entire time. Unlike people with fixed addresses, they can just up and move to a quiet part of the city to sleep, and then drive back after.

fallingknife 5y ago

Do you have a source on any of that?

jeromegv 5y ago
If you have family or friends in Ottawa, you know. Here's an interview with a MD in downtown Ottawa, speaking of her and her staff at a medical clinic getting harassed in the street for wearing a mask. https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/1080354245/health-care-workers-in-ottawa-are-being-harassed-protesters-against-covid-19-man https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/1080354245/health-care-worker...
- adolph 5y ago
  I read the story. The MD does not claim she or her staff has been harassed. Her one claim is "And a lot of people have been harassed, have been told to take their masks off." The MD also claims "I would say that a huge 18-wheeler is not a peaceful thing to have in the middle of your city" which is weird since large trucks are a primary and pervasive mode of transporting goods nearly everywhere. The story also does not disclose that the interviewee is an Ontario public employee, essentially a spokesperson for the government position, which is in opposition to the protestors.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    > The MD also claims "I would say that a huge 18-wheeler is not a peaceful thing to have in the middle of your city" which is weird since large trucks are a primary and pervasive mode of transporting goods nearly everywhere. I must have missed where large trucks sit for days on end, engine running, horns blaring endlessly as part of their "useful public utility". > The story also does not disclose that the interviewee is an Ontario public employee, essentially a spokesperson for the government position, which is in opposition to the protestors. This is blatant bias on your part. Doctors employed by the state to provide healthcare are not government spokespeople, however you're trying to spin it here.
    - 5y ago

purephase 5y ago

I've said this before. There's a strong libertarian bent to HN and I'm not surprised if there's a large contingent of this site that actively supports the convoy. There's people here that are strong supports of Peter Thiel, if that's any indication of where their sympathies lie. But, most of them are not residents of Ottawa, and the lived experiences of people in that city, particurlarly those who have had run ins with the protesters, or struggled through the 16-18 hours / day of honking, had to walk around or be harrassed by them, see the awful imagery of Trump, Confederate etc. flags being waved around, the yellow star morons etc. cannot simply be dismissed as bad or inaccurate media. A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and, even in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police handled it properly, but question the admonition levied against the Ottawa police. The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as city council. They sat on their hands while allowing this to spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim or blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today). It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact on the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof that the so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out to be. Especially if you're white.

blindmute 5y ago
Making one city a bit uncomfortable temporarily is well worth creating justice for an entire country permanently. Sucks for Ottowans, but the truckers are doing the right thing morally.
j_walter 5y ago
>A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and, even in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police handled it properly, but question the admonition levied against the Ottawa police. >The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as city council. They sat on their hands while allowing this to spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim or blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today). >It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact on the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof that the so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out to be. Especially if you're white. This is really not much different than how Portland handled the BLM protests in 2020. 100 straight nights of extreme protests with violence against police and federal buildings. Only difference is this is during the night and many neighborhoods were terrorized as it moved from downtown. Not much media coverage of this other than conservative journalist Andy Ngo who has himself been violently targeted for simply recording and publishing video of what is happening.

99_00 5y ago

Looking at the live streams, I see visible minorities going to the protests and supporting the truckers and the atmosphere seems festive and celebratory more than anything else.