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Which can be resolved by a consumer awareness campaign around card disputes & chargebacks. You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant

Which can be resolved by a consumer awareness campaign around card disputes & chargebacks. You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant is being uncooperative or you haven't received the goods/services promised.

bradknowles 5y ago
Laws differ on that subject internationally. You can’t assume that your American-centric views on that subject are universally applicable. They’re not.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  My point is that it's not just laws - it's rules enforced by the card networks. Laws may strengthen these protections under certain conditions, but the basic card network rules are enough to fight against malicious merchants.
ummonk 5y ago
The key statement there is "if" - you have to try to contact the merchant first before you issue the chargeback. And even a successful chargeback doesn't prevent the merchant from reporting the missed payments on your credit record or sending it to collections. In contrast, with Apple Pay it's a quick subscription cancellation via one simple interface.
- keleftheriou 5y ago
  Apple Pay != Apple in-app purchases Regardless, Apple could still mandate use of their own payment system alongside optional 3rd-party systems, and let all options compete on their merits - ease of cancellation being one of them.
FabHK 5y ago
> chargebacks. > You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant is being uncooperative or you haven't received the goods/services promised. You can? In the Netherlands? Which is what this is about?
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Yes you can, worldwide with a Visa, MasterCard or Amex. Most of these card networks have consumer-friendly rules that merchants have to abide by if they want to process payments. Each country can have its own laws on top of that (such as Section 75 protection in the UK for credit cards only) but the basic dispute scheme is managed by the card networks.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Most of the benefits of credit card networks don't apply in the EU. Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. My bank stopped the insurance a few years ago. I think it's just that they don't make any money (their profits mainly evolve around interest and late fees), as mostly everyone here pays their CC bill on time and has only one card. There's also hardly any loyalty programs to speak of. I've never seen anyone do cashbacks and with the loyalty points you'll be lucky to get a towel set a year :P The whole situation is very different from the US. Most people only even have the debit version of the card but even for the credit version it's like this. I still have both because some US companies don't accept the debit version of my card. Though it's becoming much less of a problem and I haven't used the card in years, will probably cancel it as it counts as an active loan.
    - Krisando 5y ago
      > Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. For credit cards, that's definately a thing. But, most people use debit cards that do not offer protections.
      - Nextgrid 5y ago
        Credit cards have some protection by law in some countries. But any Visa or Mastercard will have some sort of protection against fraud and malicious merchants. That protection is as far as I know universal regardless of where you are located and will be more than enough to deal with merchants who don't honor cancellation requests, grossly misrepresent their products/services or outright don't provide the product/service you paid for.

bradknowles 5y ago

Laws differ on that subject internationally. You can’t assume that your American-centric views on that subject are universally applicable. They’re not.

Nextgrid 5y ago
My point is that it's not just laws - it's rules enforced by the card networks. Laws may strengthen these protections under certain conditions, but the basic card network rules are enough to fight against malicious merchants.

ummonk 5y ago

The key statement there is "if" - you have to try to contact the merchant first before you issue the chargeback. And even a successful chargeback doesn't prevent the merchant from reporting the missed payments on your credit record or sending it to collections. In contrast, with Apple Pay it's a quick subscription cancellation via one simple interface.

keleftheriou 5y ago
Apple Pay != Apple in-app purchases Regardless, Apple could still mandate use of their own payment system alongside optional 3rd-party systems, and let all options compete on their merits - ease of cancellation being one of them.

FabHK 5y ago

> chargebacks. > You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant is being uncooperative or you haven't received the goods/services promised. You can? In the Netherlands? Which is what this is about?

Nextgrid 5y ago
Yes you can, worldwide with a Visa, MasterCard or Amex. Most of these card networks have consumer-friendly rules that merchants have to abide by if they want to process payments. Each country can have its own laws on top of that (such as Section 75 protection in the UK for credit cards only) but the basic dispute scheme is managed by the card networks.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Most of the benefits of credit card networks don't apply in the EU. Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. My bank stopped the insurance a few years ago. I think it's just that they don't make any money (their profits mainly evolve around interest and late fees), as mostly everyone here pays their CC bill on time and has only one card. There's also hardly any loyalty programs to speak of. I've never seen anyone do cashbacks and with the loyalty points you'll be lucky to get a towel set a year :P The whole situation is very different from the US. Most people only even have the debit version of the card but even for the credit version it's like this. I still have both because some US companies don't accept the debit version of my card. Though it's becoming much less of a problem and I haven't used the card in years, will probably cancel it as it counts as an active loan.
  - Krisando 5y ago
    > Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. For credit cards, that's definately a thing. But, most people use debit cards that do not offer protections.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Credit cards have some protection by law in some countries. But any Visa or Mastercard will have some sort of protection against fraud and malicious merchants. That protection is as far as I know universal regardless of where you are located and will be more than enough to deal with merchants who don't honor cancellation requests, grossly misrepresent their products/services or outright don't provide the product/service you paid for.