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> First off, they say that in order to get out of the requirement that everyone give Apple 30% of income, they say that those using an alternative payment metho

> First off, they say that in order to get out of the requirement that everyone give Apple 30% of income, they say that those using an alternative payment method still must give Apple 27% of income. That's not exactly the trade here – Apple is letting people use alternative payment providers, which does carry a lot of benefits besides not paying the fee, including better customer management and support

ummonk 5y ago
> which does carry a lot of benefits besides not paying the fee, including better customer management and support And most importantly, making it really difficult for the user to cancel the subscription
- Tagbert 5y ago
  One problem app developers now have is that they can’t refund any purchases even if they agree that it is justified. They tell customers that only Apple can do that and customers tend to not believe them but that is how Apple set it up.
  - philistine 5y ago
    How easy would it have been for Apple to implement a way for a third-party developper to push a refund to a customer? I'm so mad at them.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Which can be resolved by a consumer awareness campaign around card disputes & chargebacks. You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant is being uncooperative or you haven't received the goods/services promised.
  - bradknowles 5y ago
    Laws differ on that subject internationally. You can’t assume that your American-centric views on that subject are universally applicable. They’re not.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      My point is that it's not just laws - it's rules enforced by the card networks. Laws may strengthen these protections under certain conditions, but the basic card network rules are enough to fight against malicious merchants.
  - ummonk 5y ago
    The key statement there is "if" - you have to try to contact the merchant first before you issue the chargeback. And even a successful chargeback doesn't prevent the merchant from reporting the missed payments on your credit record or sending it to collections. In contrast, with Apple Pay it's a quick subscription cancellation via one simple interface.
    - keleftheriou 5y ago
      Apple Pay != Apple in-app purchases Regardless, Apple could still mandate use of their own payment system alongside optional 3rd-party systems, and let all options compete on their merits - ease of cancellation being one of them.
  - FabHK 5y ago
    > chargebacks. > You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant is being uncooperative or you haven't received the goods/services promised. You can? In the Netherlands? Which is what this is about?
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Yes you can, worldwide with a Visa, MasterCard or Amex. Most of these card networks have consumer-friendly rules that merchants have to abide by if they want to process payments. Each country can have its own laws on top of that (such as Section 75 protection in the UK for credit cards only) but the basic dispute scheme is managed by the card networks.
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        Most of the benefits of credit card networks don't apply in the EU. Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. My bank stopped the insurance a few years ago. I think it's just that they don't make any money (their profits mainly evolve around interest and late fees), as mostly everyone here pays their CC bill on time and has only one card. There's also hardly any loyalty programs to speak of. I've never seen anyone do cashbacks and with the loyalty points you'll be lucky to get a towel set a year :P The whole situation is very different from the US. Most people only even have the debit version of the card but even for the credit version it's like this. I still have both because some US companies don't accept the debit version of my card. Though it's becoming much less of a problem and I haven't used the card in years, will probably cancel it as it counts as an active loan.
        Krisando 5y ago
        > Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. For credit cards, that's definately a thing. But, most people use debit cards that do not offer protections.
        Nextgrid 5y ago
- lozenge 5y ago
  Not necessarily, one example of an alternative payment method which allows users to cancel subscriptions is PayPal. While there are probably some companies that would like to make subscriptions difficult to cancel, I don't believe this is true of dating apps.
- JanSt 5y ago
  New EU legislation makes it mandatory to add a prominent button to cancel your subscription! It‘s not allowed to force you to give a call or, in Germany, even login. https://www.mofo.com/resources/insights/211006-new-two-click-cancellation-button.html https://www.mofo.com/resources/insights/211006-new-two-click...
  - ummonk 5y ago
    Okay that's really awesome!
  - chihuahua 5y ago
    That article seems to say that it's sufficient to identify (but not authenticate) yourself as the subscriber who wants to cancel. So anyone can cancel any other subscribers they want? OK, German lawmakers, whatever you say... > If sufficient data to identify the subscription to be cancelled > is entered by the consumer, the submission of the form will itself > be a valid cancellation, the effect of which cannot be made subject > to further steps such as logins or second factor (e.g., email, app) > confirmations.
    - Someone 5y ago
      I think the right pattern would be to send a mail “we got a request to cancel your subscription. We did that, but if it wasn’t you who made that request, or you accidentally unsubscribed, click here to revert that cancellation within X days”.
      - chihuahua 5y ago
        And if you're unlucky, you're going to get one of these every day for every one of your subscriptions. All it takes is someone who doesn't like you and who knows your email.
        littlecranky67 5y ago
        True, you'd be in for some more clicks. I'd still prefer to take that risk, as it is way more work to find out cancellation procedures for the ever-growing list of paid/subscription services, employing more and more dark patterns to extract "value" out of you.
samb1729 5y ago
I'd speculate that not paying the 30% Apple Tax is basically the whole point for most businesses that care about it.
JanSt 5y ago
They also added a bunch of requirements. Example (besides what was already mentioned): You have to report every single transaction to them. Apple is making it practically impossible AND they put a 27% fee on top. This behaviour might really come hunt them. The EU is already set to add gatekeeper legislation. Apple‘s behaviour might lead to even stricter regulation or forcing them to split the app store off into a new company. They don‘t even try to mask what they are doing. A big middle finger to the EU regulators.

ummonk 5y ago

> which does carry a lot of benefits besides not paying the fee, including better customer management and support And most importantly, making it really difficult for the user to cancel the subscription

Tagbert 5y ago
One problem app developers now have is that they can’t refund any purchases even if they agree that it is justified. They tell customers that only Apple can do that and customers tend to not believe them but that is how Apple set it up.
- philistine 5y ago
  How easy would it have been for Apple to implement a way for a third-party developper to push a refund to a customer? I'm so mad at them.
Nextgrid 5y ago
Which can be resolved by a consumer awareness campaign around card disputes & chargebacks. You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant is being uncooperative or you haven't received the goods/services promised.
- bradknowles 5y ago
  Laws differ on that subject internationally. You can’t assume that your American-centric views on that subject are universally applicable. They’re not.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    My point is that it's not just laws - it's rules enforced by the card networks. Laws may strengthen these protections under certain conditions, but the basic card network rules are enough to fight against malicious merchants.
- ummonk 5y ago
  The key statement there is "if" - you have to try to contact the merchant first before you issue the chargeback. And even a successful chargeback doesn't prevent the merchant from reporting the missed payments on your credit record or sending it to collections. In contrast, with Apple Pay it's a quick subscription cancellation via one simple interface.
  - keleftheriou 5y ago
    Apple Pay != Apple in-app purchases Regardless, Apple could still mandate use of their own payment system alongside optional 3rd-party systems, and let all options compete on their merits - ease of cancellation being one of them.
- FabHK 5y ago
  > chargebacks. > You can dispute any transaction even on a debit card if the merchant is being uncooperative or you haven't received the goods/services promised. You can? In the Netherlands? Which is what this is about?
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Yes you can, worldwide with a Visa, MasterCard or Amex. Most of these card networks have consumer-friendly rules that merchants have to abide by if they want to process payments. Each country can have its own laws on top of that (such as Section 75 protection in the UK for credit cards only) but the basic dispute scheme is managed by the card networks.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Most of the benefits of credit card networks don't apply in the EU. Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. My bank stopped the insurance a few years ago. I think it's just that they don't make any money (their profits mainly evolve around interest and late fees), as mostly everyone here pays their CC bill on time and has only one card. There's also hardly any loyalty programs to speak of. I've never seen anyone do cashbacks and with the loyalty points you'll be lucky to get a towel set a year :P The whole situation is very different from the US. Most people only even have the debit version of the card but even for the credit version it's like this. I still have both because some US companies don't accept the debit version of my card. Though it's becoming much less of a problem and I haven't used the card in years, will probably cancel it as it counts as an active loan.
      - Krisando 5y ago
        > Like the purchase insurance and easy chargeback are not easy at all here. For credit cards, that's definately a thing. But, most people use debit cards that do not offer protections.
        Nextgrid 5y ago
lozenge 5y ago
Not necessarily, one example of an alternative payment method which allows users to cancel subscriptions is PayPal. While there are probably some companies that would like to make subscriptions difficult to cancel, I don't believe this is true of dating apps.
JanSt 5y ago
New EU legislation makes it mandatory to add a prominent button to cancel your subscription! It‘s not allowed to force you to give a call or, in Germany, even login. https://www.mofo.com/resources/insights/211006-new-two-click-cancellation-button.html https://www.mofo.com/resources/insights/211006-new-two-click...
- ummonk 5y ago
  Okay that's really awesome!
- chihuahua 5y ago
  That article seems to say that it's sufficient to identify (but not authenticate) yourself as the subscriber who wants to cancel. So anyone can cancel any other subscribers they want? OK, German lawmakers, whatever you say... > If sufficient data to identify the subscription to be cancelled > is entered by the consumer, the submission of the form will itself > be a valid cancellation, the effect of which cannot be made subject > to further steps such as logins or second factor (e.g., email, app) > confirmations.
  - Someone 5y ago
    I think the right pattern would be to send a mail “we got a request to cancel your subscription. We did that, but if it wasn’t you who made that request, or you accidentally unsubscribed, click here to revert that cancellation within X days”.
    - chihuahua 5y ago
      And if you're unlucky, you're going to get one of these every day for every one of your subscriptions. All it takes is someone who doesn't like you and who knows your email.
      - littlecranky67 5y ago
        True, you'd be in for some more clicks. I'd still prefer to take that risk, as it is way more work to find out cancellation procedures for the ever-growing list of paid/subscription services, employing more and more dark patterns to extract "value" out of you.

samb1729 5y ago

I'd speculate that not paying the 30% Apple Tax is basically the whole point for most businesses that care about it.

JanSt 5y ago

They also added a bunch of requirements. Example (besides what was already mentioned): You have to report every single transaction to them. Apple is making it practically impossible AND they put a 27% fee on top. This behaviour might really come hunt them. The EU is already set to add gatekeeper legislation. Apple‘s behaviour might lead to even stricter regulation or forcing them to split the app store off into a new company. They don‘t even try to mask what they are doing. A big middle finger to the EU regulators.