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Apple does a lot of very questionable stuff, but I'm still not convinced regulation is the solution here. It's still very easy to go with an Android variant tha

Apple does a lot of very questionable stuff, but I'm still not convinced regulation is the solution here. It's still very easy to go with an Android variant that doesn't have some of these restrictions (though increasingly some Android phones are introducing their own annoyances). For example for the given article users of dating apps can already use different payment providers, provided they go with a different phone. If these types of grievances are so bad, why don't users switch? It's worth considering these questions. Apple does certainly try to incentivize you to go-all in with Apple Watch/Fitness+ integrations, AirPod, AirTag, etc. I believe Europe's general approach is just contributing to its brain drain. A large chunk of huge tech companies in the United States are founded by European nationals, not even children of immigrants. You cannot ignore that California alone has a larger tech industry than the entirety of Europe. It's not like Californians are smarter than Europeans, the difference is regulation. Personally I believe it's because Europe is way too stifling in its rules and regulations. In comparison the United States is just a far superior environment for innovation and starting tech companies in general. Resolve this problem, and then Europeans will just move over to a local national company and then the issue of Apple being anti competitive will be no longer relevant, as there will be competition. TLDR: Help foster strong competitive companies, stop wasting time trying to neuter Apple

enragedcacti 5y ago
Dating apps cannot use alternate payment methods within their Google Play App and are subject to the same 30% fee. In order to avoid the fee, they would have to distribute the app through an alternative store or as an APK which has just as many if not more hoops than what regulators are objecting to here, although they do get to keep the last 27% compared to the Apple situation.
zamadatix 5y ago
There are far too many axes to weigh when switching products/providers every time a single point is handled poorly. Is it really reasonable for someone to make a choice on changing all of the things associated with their mobile phone based on whether or not dating apps are treated fairly?
enragedcacti 5y ago
> Resolve this problem, and then Europeans will just move over to a local national company and then the issue of Apple being anti competitive will be no longer relevant, as there will be competition. If Microsoft wasn't able to successfully enter the smartphone space after spending billions and making a product many consumers loved, why should we expect the results to be different for new companies just by deregulating Europe? Network effects are the primary challenge to competing with Google and Apple, not regulatory restrictions.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I disagree - Spotify is biggest music service despite being the smallest company among its competitors. Network effects can be broken. It’s not like Google and Apple are #1 in every area where they compete.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > It’s not like Google and Apple are #1 in every area where they compete. Google and Apple control the platform so they can kick you out or make your business unprofitable with shenanigans such as these.
  - parthdesai 5y ago
    And ask spotify of how they feel about app store, apple and it's practices :) https://newsroom.spotify.com/2019-03-13/consumers-and-innovators-win-on-a-level-playing-field/ https://newsroom.spotify.com/2019-03-13/consumers-and-innova...
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      Seems like they’re ok with it since they’re still on iOS.
      - jsnell 5y ago
        Seems like Apple should be ok with obeying European regulations, since they're still operating here.
warning26 5y ago
> For example for the given article users of dating apps can already use different payment providers, provided they go with a different phone. That's right! Just throw out your iPhone, re-buy every app and any digital content you've ever bought for it, and switch to Android! It's easy! This is like arguing that Microsoft wasn't monopolistic in the 90s because Linux existed.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Are you arguing people can’t easily switch between ios and android? Unless you’re exclusively using first party apps, the vast majority are on both platforms. And speaking of Microsoft- Microsoft had a 80%+ market share and Apple obliterated them. Create a better experience and people will move Which technologies from Europe have been objectively superior and were killed off by Apple or Google due to abusing their position?
  - kristiandupont 5y ago
    It might be easy enough but it's not very helpful because it's a duopoly. I disagree with even more of Google's business practices than Apple's.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      Fair enough, surely someone in Europe has made an alternative that can you move to then?
      - ejj28 5y ago
        Like what? Blackberry OS and Windows Phone are dead. There aren't any feasible smartphone platforms out there besides iOS and Android, unless you think your average consumer should be buying a Pinephone or something (and I wouldn't consider that anywhere close to feasible anyways).
        endisneigh 5y ago
pjmlp 5y ago
Globalisation is coming to an end, as pandemic has shown how countries have placed too much power on third parties.
Nextgrid 5y ago
> It's still very easy to go with an Android variant It's still not very common knowledge. Most people wouldn't even know this is happening; keep in mind that Apple's rules also prohibit you from mentioning that alternate payment options exist (even if those are on other platforms). Also, most people don't have the disposable cash to just throw away their iPhone and go buy an Android when encountering this issue. Frankly, it's still probably more rational to just pay the 30% tax than forego a significant chunk of value off the phone by buying a new Android replacement. Android also has its own problems (including with privacy, etc) which hopefully will be addressed at some point, but for now it's not a silver bullet, simply a different set of tradeoffs. I believe the role of a competition watchdog is to prevent anticompetitive practices that hurt consumers as a whole. I don't think it's far-fetched to strike down stupid rules that don't provide any value beyond allowing assholes to seek rent. > Personally I believe it's because Europe is way too stifling in its rules and regulations. In comparison the United States is just a far superior environment for innovation and starting tech companies in general. IMO, the US model allows a minority to legally screw the rest of the population and get rich off it, offloading the negative externalities onto society. This Apple rule is an example, albeit very small in the grand scheme of things when you consider what is possible and routinely done in the US. > Help foster strong competitive companies To a certain extent that's what the EU is doing here. Keep in mind that in the last couple decades a lot of business ideas & markets have been monopolized by US-based companies who are now using anti-competitive practices to prevent viable competition from emerging. The problem with the EU isn't primarily regulation (though it makes a lot of user-hostile business models impossible - a good thing in my book), it's the lack thereof that allowed US-based companies to monopolize many markets even in Europe.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Apple may do whatever they please on their Appstore app. But they should stop trying to control a phone they SOLD to customer and allow unimpeded running any app the customer needs, including competing stores or directly installed apps.
simion314 5y ago
>You cannot ignore that California alone has a larger tech industry than the entirety of Europe. It's not like Californians are smarter than Europeans, the difference is regulation. The tech industry in US has so much money that is just burned on shitty products, so I am not a bit surprised if you start too many projects and also buy your way into the market you get on top. There are examples where big US companies bought competitors so it is clear that money is keeping this giants on top.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Why did this happen in the United States - California in particular - and not Europe?
  - simion314 5y ago
    I could try to explain the history but I am not an expert in it, I would for sure hurt some feelings and obtain nothing from it. Sorry I won't reveal the actual reason and just tell you a reason that is not it. My point is that you can't blame GDPR or some "regulation" for the reason an european FB did not popped and rapidly increased 10 years ago. This is a lame excused used by anti-regulation dudes.
concinds 5y ago
Many of these problems result from lack of regulation. Regulations are necessary to preserve free and open markets, prevent monopolies and protect competition. Two companies having total control over the app economy and taking 15-30% of revenues stifles innovation. Lack of antitrust enforcement stifles innovation. You're against antitrust enforcement, yet it would increase economic freedom, not reduce it, by allowing smaller companies to compete. You also want Europe to come up with its dominant search engine or mobile OS. There's no longer any chance of that happening, because of network effects. There is simply no way for any European company to come up with a superior OS, or superior social network, since they lack the network effects; since they can't have a superior product, they can never compete, and can never displace US incumbents. The only way Europe will have its own tech giants in current markets (not in some new markets, like VR, that's still perfectly possible) is if they do what China did: ban US tech, and aggressively fund alternatives. Both of which would be against your economic preferences. "Free markets" have certain benefits, but they won't achieve what you believe they will; actually quite the opposite.
lukeschlather 5y ago
> It's still very easy to go with an Android variant "Very easy" to me would be that Apple provides support for an Android variant that runs on iPhones.

enragedcacti 5y ago

Dating apps cannot use alternate payment methods within their Google Play App and are subject to the same 30% fee. In order to avoid the fee, they would have to distribute the app through an alternative store or as an APK which has just as many if not more hoops than what regulators are objecting to here, although they do get to keep the last 27% compared to the Apple situation.

zamadatix 5y ago

There are far too many axes to weigh when switching products/providers every time a single point is handled poorly. Is it really reasonable for someone to make a choice on changing all of the things associated with their mobile phone based on whether or not dating apps are treated fairly?

enragedcacti 5y ago

> Resolve this problem, and then Europeans will just move over to a local national company and then the issue of Apple being anti competitive will be no longer relevant, as there will be competition. If Microsoft wasn't able to successfully enter the smartphone space after spending billions and making a product many consumers loved, why should we expect the results to be different for new companies just by deregulating Europe? Network effects are the primary challenge to competing with Google and Apple, not regulatory restrictions.

endisneigh 5y ago
I disagree - Spotify is biggest music service despite being the smallest company among its competitors. Network effects can be broken. It’s not like Google and Apple are #1 in every area where they compete.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > It’s not like Google and Apple are #1 in every area where they compete. Google and Apple control the platform so they can kick you out or make your business unprofitable with shenanigans such as these.
- parthdesai 5y ago
  And ask spotify of how they feel about app store, apple and it's practices :) https://newsroom.spotify.com/2019-03-13/consumers-and-innovators-win-on-a-level-playing-field/ https://newsroom.spotify.com/2019-03-13/consumers-and-innova...
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Seems like they’re ok with it since they’re still on iOS.
    - jsnell 5y ago
      Seems like Apple should be ok with obeying European regulations, since they're still operating here.

warning26 5y ago

> For example for the given article users of dating apps can already use different payment providers, provided they go with a different phone. That's right! Just throw out your iPhone, re-buy every app and any digital content you've ever bought for it, and switch to Android! It's easy! This is like arguing that Microsoft wasn't monopolistic in the 90s because Linux existed.

endisneigh 5y ago
Are you arguing people can’t easily switch between ios and android? Unless you’re exclusively using first party apps, the vast majority are on both platforms. And speaking of Microsoft- Microsoft had a 80%+ market share and Apple obliterated them. Create a better experience and people will move Which technologies from Europe have been objectively superior and were killed off by Apple or Google due to abusing their position?
- kristiandupont 5y ago
  It might be easy enough but it's not very helpful because it's a duopoly. I disagree with even more of Google's business practices than Apple's.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Fair enough, surely someone in Europe has made an alternative that can you move to then?
    - ejj28 5y ago
      Like what? Blackberry OS and Windows Phone are dead. There aren't any feasible smartphone platforms out there besides iOS and Android, unless you think your average consumer should be buying a Pinephone or something (and I wouldn't consider that anywhere close to feasible anyways).
      - endisneigh 5y ago

pjmlp 5y ago

Globalisation is coming to an end, as pandemic has shown how countries have placed too much power on third parties.

Nextgrid 5y ago

> It's still very easy to go with an Android variant It's still not very common knowledge. Most people wouldn't even know this is happening; keep in mind that Apple's rules also prohibit you from mentioning that alternate payment options exist (even if those are on other platforms). Also, most people don't have the disposable cash to just throw away their iPhone and go buy an Android when encountering this issue. Frankly, it's still probably more rational to just pay the 30% tax than forego a significant chunk of value off the phone by buying a new Android replacement. Android also has its own problems (including with privacy, etc) which hopefully will be addressed at some point, but for now it's not a silver bullet, simply a different set of tradeoffs. I believe the role of a competition watchdog is to prevent anticompetitive practices that hurt consumers as a whole. I don't think it's far-fetched to strike down stupid rules that don't provide any value beyond allowing assholes to seek rent. > Personally I believe it's because Europe is way too stifling in its rules and regulations. In comparison the United States is just a far superior environment for innovation and starting tech companies in general. IMO, the US model allows a minority to legally screw the rest of the population and get rich off it, offloading the negative externalities onto society. This Apple rule is an example, albeit very small in the grand scheme of things when you consider what is possible and routinely done in the US. > Help foster strong competitive companies To a certain extent that's what the EU is doing here. Keep in mind that in the last couple decades a lot of business ideas & markets have been monopolized by US-based companies who are now using anti-competitive practices to prevent viable competition from emerging. The problem with the EU isn't primarily regulation (though it makes a lot of user-hostile business models impossible - a good thing in my book), it's the lack thereof that allowed US-based companies to monopolize many markets even in Europe.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

Apple may do whatever they please on their Appstore app. But they should stop trying to control a phone they SOLD to customer and allow unimpeded running any app the customer needs, including competing stores or directly installed apps.

simion314 5y ago

>You cannot ignore that California alone has a larger tech industry than the entirety of Europe. It's not like Californians are smarter than Europeans, the difference is regulation. The tech industry in US has so much money that is just burned on shitty products, so I am not a bit surprised if you start too many projects and also buy your way into the market you get on top. There are examples where big US companies bought competitors so it is clear that money is keeping this giants on top.

endisneigh 5y ago
Why did this happen in the United States - California in particular - and not Europe?
- simion314 5y ago
  I could try to explain the history but I am not an expert in it, I would for sure hurt some feelings and obtain nothing from it. Sorry I won't reveal the actual reason and just tell you a reason that is not it. My point is that you can't blame GDPR or some "regulation" for the reason an european FB did not popped and rapidly increased 10 years ago. This is a lame excused used by anti-regulation dudes.

concinds 5y ago

Many of these problems result from lack of regulation. Regulations are necessary to preserve free and open markets, prevent monopolies and protect competition. Two companies having total control over the app economy and taking 15-30% of revenues stifles innovation. Lack of antitrust enforcement stifles innovation. You're against antitrust enforcement, yet it would increase economic freedom, not reduce it, by allowing smaller companies to compete. You also want Europe to come up with its dominant search engine or mobile OS. There's no longer any chance of that happening, because of network effects. There is simply no way for any European company to come up with a superior OS, or superior social network, since they lack the network effects; since they can't have a superior product, they can never compete, and can never displace US incumbents. The only way Europe will have its own tech giants in current markets (not in some new markets, like VR, that's still perfectly possible) is if they do what China did: ban US tech, and aggressively fund alternatives. Both of which would be against your economic preferences. "Free markets" have certain benefits, but they won't achieve what you believe they will; actually quite the opposite.

lukeschlather 5y ago

> It's still very easy to go with an Android variant "Very easy" to me would be that Apple provides support for an Android variant that runs on iPhones.