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> I'm still not sure exactly what you are proposing. Facebook gives me a way to communicate with my friends. It sounds like you want to take that away. I want

> I'm still not sure exactly what you are proposing. Facebook gives me a way to communicate with my friends. It sounds like you want to take that away. I want us to stop allowing that business models that rely on harming workers must exist. We may choose to allow it, but it's a choice. They do not "have to" do it, and we do not "have to" let them do it. I hate discussion of harm to these workers that frames it as "well, it sucks, but we have to". We. Do. Not. Have. To. We may choose to, but we don't have to. We don't even have to if we want efficient mass communication. We have to if we want a few publishers to be able to corner and monetize the attention economy.

bryan_w 5y ago
I don't get what you mean. If there was a large enough mailing list, people would send this stuff on it and then the list would become moderated and we would be back at square one. I'm sure the Linux kernel mailing list gets tons of vile things sent to it all the time which are filtered out. I don't see why we have to involve business models at all. Any large all to all communication medium is going to have this issue and the only way to prevent it is to devolve back to the cable tv/newspaper era where people only consume content.
MichaelZuo 5y ago
Huh? FB could very well stop this and settle for less ‘efficient mass communication’ via many possible methods. Such as limiting the user base, restricting communication to friends of friends only, etc. Obviously though a competitor with even less scruples will rise up and gobble up their marketshare if they did something that drastic. So the net result makes no difference. To actually prevent child pornography from getting shared would require a dictatorship censoring the entire internet. Sure it would be the government instead of multiple big private companies, but that seems even worse than the current situation? And if you go the other way and have millions of little networks, how do you plan on stopping all the bad stuff from being shared without an even more powerful and centralized dictatorship deciding who can form networks or not? If you mean to get rid of all censorship and let free sharing of child pornography, etc., that will not pass any democratic legislature, at least in the West, since the vast majority of people want to limit that. So in the end all alternatives would lead to even less freedom. Have you actually thought through any of this?
beardedetim 5y ago
If I wanted to start a media hosting service for me and my community (_local, only within an N-block radius of my hosting device_), who would you expect to be held liable if the hard drives associated with that device held something illegal in those N-blocks?
- brimble 5y ago
  If you were also publishing those files to the entire world, changing the formatting to suit your site's needs & branding, algorithmically selecting the pieces of media that draw "engagement" and preferentially putting those in front of people, burying others, and also publishing ads alongside all that, I'd not hesitate a bit to say that you should be, at least in large part. Facebook's a magazine publisher at massive scale, that relies on worst-in-class submission and acceptance processes to make money. They're not in the file storage business.
  - beardedetim 5y ago
    Are you saying that if _any one of those_ things isn't true that it's _not my responsibility_ for the bits on that machine? I am losing the thread here a bit and am not clear on what you are trying to say or how you're answering my question. Apologies.
    - brimble 5y ago
      I'm saying that I don't think "file storage service for locals" is even in the same product category as what Facebook does, even putting scale aside. They're an ad-supported publisher with extremely lax standards. A file storage, or even file sharing, service, isn't necessarily that, and it would take several steps to bridge that gap and travel from "not at all comparable to Facebook", through "grey area", and into "OK, now we're talking about something pretty similar to Facebook (and to Twitter, et c.)".
      - beardedetim 5y ago
        For sure agree these are totally different and the space between them vast! I was asking directly about a specific use-case so that I can better understand your perspective on who is responsible for the bits stored on a hard drive.

bryan_w 5y ago

I don't get what you mean. If there was a large enough mailing list, people would send this stuff on it and then the list would become moderated and we would be back at square one. I'm sure the Linux kernel mailing list gets tons of vile things sent to it all the time which are filtered out. I don't see why we have to involve business models at all. Any large all to all communication medium is going to have this issue and the only way to prevent it is to devolve back to the cable tv/newspaper era where people only consume content.

MichaelZuo 5y ago

Huh? FB could very well stop this and settle for less ‘efficient mass communication’ via many possible methods. Such as limiting the user base, restricting communication to friends of friends only, etc. Obviously though a competitor with even less scruples will rise up and gobble up their marketshare if they did something that drastic. So the net result makes no difference. To actually prevent child pornography from getting shared would require a dictatorship censoring the entire internet. Sure it would be the government instead of multiple big private companies, but that seems even worse than the current situation? And if you go the other way and have millions of little networks, how do you plan on stopping all the bad stuff from being shared without an even more powerful and centralized dictatorship deciding who can form networks or not? If you mean to get rid of all censorship and let free sharing of child pornography, etc., that will not pass any democratic legislature, at least in the West, since the vast majority of people want to limit that. So in the end all alternatives would lead to even less freedom. Have you actually thought through any of this?

beardedetim 5y ago

If I wanted to start a media hosting service for me and my community (_local, only within an N-block radius of my hosting device_), who would you expect to be held liable if the hard drives associated with that device held something illegal in those N-blocks?

brimble 5y ago
If you were also publishing those files to the entire world, changing the formatting to suit your site's needs & branding, algorithmically selecting the pieces of media that draw "engagement" and preferentially putting those in front of people, burying others, and also publishing ads alongside all that, I'd not hesitate a bit to say that you should be, at least in large part. Facebook's a magazine publisher at massive scale, that relies on worst-in-class submission and acceptance processes to make money. They're not in the file storage business.
- beardedetim 5y ago
  Are you saying that if _any one of those_ things isn't true that it's _not my responsibility_ for the bits on that machine? I am losing the thread here a bit and am not clear on what you are trying to say or how you're answering my question. Apologies.
  - brimble 5y ago
    I'm saying that I don't think "file storage service for locals" is even in the same product category as what Facebook does, even putting scale aside. They're an ad-supported publisher with extremely lax standards. A file storage, or even file sharing, service, isn't necessarily that, and it would take several steps to bridge that gap and travel from "not at all comparable to Facebook", through "grey area", and into "OK, now we're talking about something pretty similar to Facebook (and to Twitter, et c.)".
    - beardedetim 5y ago
      For sure agree these are totally different and the space between them vast! I was asking directly about a specific use-case so that I can better understand your perspective on who is responsible for the bits stored on a hard drive.