4 ms·

You're ignoring what I wrote entirely. We're not calling it an insurrection because it's a protest. We're calling it an insurrection because it's a protest wi

You're ignoring what I wrote entirely. We're not calling it an insurrection because it's a protest. We're calling it an insurrection because it's a protest with the express stated goal of overthrowing the democratically elected government.

hammock 5y ago
Play that out. How will it happen?
- jjulius 5y ago
  Not OP, not taking sides, but the "how" of it playing out is irrelevant if the stated intent is to overthrow a government.
  - echelon 5y ago
    Every political compass direction has these elements. They're fringe. This issue is about dialogue with constituents. Meanwhile there are dozens of more pressing matters that actually deserve serious attention. Ukraine, EARN IT (US for now, but it'll go global), etc.
cjbgkagh 5y ago
I haven't followed very closely so perhaps I missed it, but is there a source on that? Only thing I can find is the reporting on Jagmeet Singh comments who is opposed to the truckers.
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/trucker-convoy-organizers-coalition-proposal-a-non-starter-expert-says-1.5773297 https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/trucker-convoy-organi...
- peeters 5y ago
  The Wikipedia article is probably your best bet for a summary of factual information at this point. > One of the main organizers behind the convoy, Canada Unity (CU), acknowledged that they had planned to submit their signed "memorandum of understanding" (MoU) to the Senate of Canada and Governor General Mary Simon, described in the MoU as the "SCGGC". The MoU which was signed by James and Sandra Bauder and Martin Brodmann, was posted on the Canada Unity website in mid-December 2021 and publicly available until its February 8 retraction. (...) CTV cited Bauder saying that he hoped the signed MoU would convince Elections Canada to trigger an election, which is not constitutionally possible. In this pseudolegal document, CU called on the "SCGGC" to cease all vaccine mandates, reemploy all employees terminated due to vaccination status, and rescind all fines imposed for non-compliance with public health orders. If this failed, the MoU called on the "SCGGC" to dissolve the government, and name members of the CU to form a Canadian Citizens Committee (CCC), which is beyond the constitutional powers of either the Governor General or the Senate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Convoy_2022#Protest_goals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Convoy_2022#Protest_go...
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    It is indeed stated, I did not know that, thanks for the reference. I don't think it's serious though. By the same measure Extinction Rebellion would be considered an insurrection. I kinda remember BLM stating demands that included a separatist black country in the south. Hardly constitutional. I think the threat would have to be serious to count as an insurrection, as in an actual credible plan to carry it out to fruition. Otherwise every crackpot would be guilty of insurrection.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    So in other words, overthrowing the government isn't their goal. Their goal is: "CU called on the SCGGC to cease all vaccine mandates, reemploy all employees terminated due to vaccination status, and rescind all fines imposed for non-compliance with public health orders" The stuff about dissolving the government is what they want if those other things aren't done.
    - 5y ago
brnaftr361 5y ago
Prove to me this effort is centralized and not some loon with zero say-so that a broadcast company quoted in a video to incense people and increase engagement. This is a protest with loads of people, and however much you want to distillate them into a caricature, they're ultimately acting independently and can withdraw their support. That is to say, because some few individuals may have said some extreme thing, doesn't mean that the whole condone that message or the intention. Just like not everyone in a protest is black block.
- BeefWellington 5y ago
  Canada Unity is one of the co-organizers of this event.[1] This is what their "Memorandum of Understanding" stated one month ago[2] (January 13): ARTICLE 1. SCOPE of ACCORD Canada Unity (CU) offers this “Memorandum” to the Senate of Canada and the Governor General of Canada, the highest authorities representing the Federal Government (SCGGC) as “The Government of Canada”. Acceptance by endorsement of this “Memorandum” and its valuable considerations, will solidify our mutual accord as further detailed in the understanding. ARTICLE 2. OBLIGATION and COOPERATION The appointed “Entities” agree to work together in the true spirit of partnership to ensure there is a united, visible, and responsive leadership of the “Initiative” and to demonstrate fair practice according to the Canadian Constitution, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and Privacy Act and as further described in Article 3.d. of this “Memorandum” administrative and managerial commitment to the “Initiative”. ARTICLE 3. MANDATE a. CU & SCGGC agree to form a committee, called the Citizens of Canada Committee (CCC). b. SCGGC undertakes and appoints authorized (CCC) representatives. c. CU undertakes and appoints authorized (CCC) representatives. d. CU & SCGGC adopts and adheres to The Government of Canada’s agreements on transparency in matters related to the Canadian Federal Referendum Act, Canadian Constitution, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act, Canadian Human Rights Act, Canadian Bill of Rights, National Security Act 2017, Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, Tri Council Policy Statement, National and International Human Rights Declarations and such Regulations et al, the Nuremberg Code, the Declaration of Helsinki all as provided by law, and not only limited to latest additions, addendums and revisions; and to be precise including laws, regulations and declarations prior to SARS-CoV-2, and any subsequent variations of SARS-CoV-2. e. SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021 instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal governments to immediately cease and desist all unconstitutional human rights, discriminatory and segregated actions, and not limited to, immediately instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial and Municipal governments to not only stop, but furthermore waive all SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations) fines that have been issued and imposed upon its citizens, institutions, and private enterprises. f. SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021, instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal governments to re-instate all employees in all branches of governments and, not limited to promote the same to the private industry and institutional sectors employees with full lawful employment rights prior to the wrongful and unlawful dismissals that stem from the SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations) vaccine passport mandates. g. SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021, issue a cease-and-desist order abolishing all Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal Vaccine Passport requirements, Vaccine discriminatory regulations, initiatives, and mandates in regard to SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations). h. Further, SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021, issue a cease-and-desist order to the respected Honorable Members of the Government of Canada with the consequent instructions to further instruct the Premiers of the Provinces and Territories, the Mayors of the respected Municipalities and, the respected Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal Medical Officers to stop all such unlawful activities pursuant to ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section d. of this “Memorandum.” i. Canada is a lawful member of the Helsinki Declaration to name one but not limited to additional Canadian and International Human Rights Laws and Regulations et al and therefore enacts its duty and responsibility to make any and all laws and regulations available to its citizens; further, to enforce and uphold such laws, regulations, and declaration(s) on behalf of its Citizens of Canada. j. By signing this “Memorandum”, CU will immediately stop “Operation Bear Hug Ottawa”, demonstration / convoy and Federal Referendum activities and will strive to work with all groups and entities et al to bring this country together in unity. k. CU & SCGGC agree to have the CCC committee formed within 10 days of acceptance and signing of this “Memorandum”. l. CU & SCGGC agree to have a final “signed” and publicly released agreement in place within “no later than 90 days” of acceptance and signing of this “Memorandum”. m. CU & SCGGC agree to only release jointly approved media / press statements on a daily basis during the time schedule specified in ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section paragraph k. and l. n. SCGGC will immediately make available all schedules as described in ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section paragraph d. available to the CCC committee. (Document continues) Effectively they want to appoint a governing body to this committee and usurp the governance of the duly elected MPs of the government, effectively dissolving it, and then end all federal and provincially-imposed imposed mandates. The problem is, the Federal government cannot force provinces to end mandates. They have since withdrawn this memorandum specifically because they found out their movement was not as popular as they believed.[3] It is currently very unpopular.[4] [1]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/who-is-who-a-guide-to-the-major-players-in-the-trucker-convoy-protest-1.5776441 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/who-is-who-a-guide-to-the-majo... [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220113155334/https://canada-unity.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Combined-MOU-Dec03.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220113155334/https://canada-un... [3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220213145435/https://canada-unity.com/mou/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220213145435/https://canada-un... [4]: https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine-mandates-covid-19/ https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine... Edit: tried to clean up formatting & missing end of sentence.

hammock 5y ago

Play that out. How will it happen?

jjulius 5y ago
Not OP, not taking sides, but the "how" of it playing out is irrelevant if the stated intent is to overthrow a government.
- echelon 5y ago
  Every political compass direction has these elements. They're fringe. This issue is about dialogue with constituents. Meanwhile there are dozens of more pressing matters that actually deserve serious attention. Ukraine, EARN IT (US for now, but it'll go global), etc.

cjbgkagh 5y ago

I haven't followed very closely so perhaps I missed it, but is there a source on that? Only thing I can find is the reporting on Jagmeet Singh comments who is opposed to the truckers.

monkeybutton 5y ago
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/trucker-convoy-organizers-coalition-proposal-a-non-starter-expert-says-1.5773297 https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/trucker-convoy-organi...
peeters 5y ago
The Wikipedia article is probably your best bet for a summary of factual information at this point. > One of the main organizers behind the convoy, Canada Unity (CU), acknowledged that they had planned to submit their signed "memorandum of understanding" (MoU) to the Senate of Canada and Governor General Mary Simon, described in the MoU as the "SCGGC". The MoU which was signed by James and Sandra Bauder and Martin Brodmann, was posted on the Canada Unity website in mid-December 2021 and publicly available until its February 8 retraction. (...) CTV cited Bauder saying that he hoped the signed MoU would convince Elections Canada to trigger an election, which is not constitutionally possible. In this pseudolegal document, CU called on the "SCGGC" to cease all vaccine mandates, reemploy all employees terminated due to vaccination status, and rescind all fines imposed for non-compliance with public health orders. If this failed, the MoU called on the "SCGGC" to dissolve the government, and name members of the CU to form a Canadian Citizens Committee (CCC), which is beyond the constitutional powers of either the Governor General or the Senate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Convoy_2022#Protest_goals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Convoy_2022#Protest_go...
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  It is indeed stated, I did not know that, thanks for the reference. I don't think it's serious though. By the same measure Extinction Rebellion would be considered an insurrection. I kinda remember BLM stating demands that included a separatist black country in the south. Hardly constitutional. I think the threat would have to be serious to count as an insurrection, as in an actual credible plan to carry it out to fruition. Otherwise every crackpot would be guilty of insurrection.
- native_samples 5y ago
  So in other words, overthrowing the government isn't their goal. Their goal is: "CU called on the SCGGC to cease all vaccine mandates, reemploy all employees terminated due to vaccination status, and rescind all fines imposed for non-compliance with public health orders" The stuff about dissolving the government is what they want if those other things aren't done.
  - 5y ago

brnaftr361 5y ago

Prove to me this effort is centralized and not some loon with zero say-so that a broadcast company quoted in a video to incense people and increase engagement. This is a protest with loads of people, and however much you want to distillate them into a caricature, they're ultimately acting independently and can withdraw their support. That is to say, because some few individuals may have said some extreme thing, doesn't mean that the whole condone that message or the intention. Just like not everyone in a protest is black block.

BeefWellington 5y ago
Canada Unity is one of the co-organizers of this event.[1] This is what their "Memorandum of Understanding" stated one month ago[2] (January 13): ARTICLE 1. SCOPE of ACCORD Canada Unity (CU) offers this “Memorandum” to the Senate of Canada and the Governor General of Canada, the highest authorities representing the Federal Government (SCGGC) as “The Government of Canada”. Acceptance by endorsement of this “Memorandum” and its valuable considerations, will solidify our mutual accord as further detailed in the understanding. ARTICLE 2. OBLIGATION and COOPERATION The appointed “Entities” agree to work together in the true spirit of partnership to ensure there is a united, visible, and responsive leadership of the “Initiative” and to demonstrate fair practice according to the Canadian Constitution, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and Privacy Act and as further described in Article 3.d. of this “Memorandum” administrative and managerial commitment to the “Initiative”. ARTICLE 3. MANDATE a. CU & SCGGC agree to form a committee, called the Citizens of Canada Committee (CCC). b. SCGGC undertakes and appoints authorized (CCC) representatives. c. CU undertakes and appoints authorized (CCC) representatives. d. CU & SCGGC adopts and adheres to The Government of Canada’s agreements on transparency in matters related to the Canadian Federal Referendum Act, Canadian Constitution, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act, Canadian Human Rights Act, Canadian Bill of Rights, National Security Act 2017, Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, Tri Council Policy Statement, National and International Human Rights Declarations and such Regulations et al, the Nuremberg Code, the Declaration of Helsinki all as provided by law, and not only limited to latest additions, addendums and revisions; and to be precise including laws, regulations and declarations prior to SARS-CoV-2, and any subsequent variations of SARS-CoV-2. e. SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021 instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal governments to immediately cease and desist all unconstitutional human rights, discriminatory and segregated actions, and not limited to, immediately instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial and Municipal governments to not only stop, but furthermore waive all SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations) fines that have been issued and imposed upon its citizens, institutions, and private enterprises. f. SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021, instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal governments to re-instate all employees in all branches of governments and, not limited to promote the same to the private industry and institutional sectors employees with full lawful employment rights prior to the wrongful and unlawful dismissals that stem from the SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations) vaccine passport mandates. g. SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021, issue a cease-and-desist order abolishing all Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal Vaccine Passport requirements, Vaccine discriminatory regulations, initiatives, and mandates in regard to SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations). h. Further, SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021, issue a cease-and-desist order to the respected Honorable Members of the Government of Canada with the consequent instructions to further instruct the Premiers of the Provinces and Territories, the Mayors of the respected Municipalities and, the respected Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal Medical Officers to stop all such unlawful activities pursuant to ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section d. of this “Memorandum.” i. Canada is a lawful member of the Helsinki Declaration to name one but not limited to additional Canadian and International Human Rights Laws and Regulations et al and therefore enacts its duty and responsibility to make any and all laws and regulations available to its citizens; further, to enforce and uphold such laws, regulations, and declaration(s) on behalf of its Citizens of Canada. j. By signing this “Memorandum”, CU will immediately stop “Operation Bear Hug Ottawa”, demonstration / convoy and Federal Referendum activities and will strive to work with all groups and entities et al to bring this country together in unity. k. CU & SCGGC agree to have the CCC committee formed within 10 days of acceptance and signing of this “Memorandum”. l. CU & SCGGC agree to have a final “signed” and publicly released agreement in place within “no later than 90 days” of acceptance and signing of this “Memorandum”. m. CU & SCGGC agree to only release jointly approved media / press statements on a daily basis during the time schedule specified in ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section paragraph k. and l. n. SCGGC will immediately make available all schedules as described in ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section paragraph d. available to the CCC committee. (Document continues) Effectively they want to appoint a governing body to this committee and usurp the governance of the duly elected MPs of the government, effectively dissolving it, and then end all federal and provincially-imposed imposed mandates. The problem is, the Federal government cannot force provinces to end mandates. They have since withdrawn this memorandum specifically because they found out their movement was not as popular as they believed.[3] It is currently very unpopular.[4] [1]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/who-is-who-a-guide-to-the-major-players-in-the-trucker-convoy-protest-1.5776441 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/who-is-who-a-guide-to-the-majo... [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220113155334/https://canada-unity.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Combined-MOU-Dec03.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220113155334/https://canada-un... [3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220213145435/https://canada-unity.com/mou/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220213145435/https://canada-un... [4]: https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine-mandates-covid-19/ https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-protest-vaccine... Edit: tried to clean up formatting & missing end of sentence.