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There is zero waste in PoW, it’s the most efficient decentralized trustless digital money ledger in existence. Your dislike of it doesn’t change laws of physic

There is zero waste in PoW, it’s the most efficient decentralized trustless digital money ledger in existence. Your dislike of it doesn’t change laws of physics.

troymc 5y ago
Citation needed.
simiones 5y ago
That's like saying that coal power plants are the least polluting non-radioactive solid fuel power generating plants in existence. It's true, but it's irrelevant: we don't need a decentralized trustless digital "money" ledger any more than we need non-radioactive solid fuel power plants. It would be nice to have decentralized trust-less digital money, but Bitcoin doesn't work as money, and it's not that nice compared to its no good very bad terrible energy waste.
- richardwhiuk 5y ago
  (Ignoring the fact that coal power plants spew radioactive dust)
- keymone 5y ago
  You don’t need. I need and a few others too. Bitcoin works great. Edit: oh, and no, it doesn’t waste anything, all the energy is used with a purpose and maximum efficiency.
  - simiones 5y ago
    > I need and a few others too A few people shouldn't get to use as much energy as a modern industrial country of millions for any purpose that only serves them. And calling this "maximum efficiency" when Visa can process the same amount of transactions on a few watts is quite comedic. Bitcoin is a speculative bubble + illegal goods exchange token. No more.
    - keymone 5y ago
      I can use as much energy as i can afford to buy on an open market, just like any other market participant. > Visa can process the same amount of transactions on a few watts comedic is your misunderstanding of what Bitcoin uses energy for. hint: it's not at all related to transactions per watt, in fact, Bitcoin is already capable of processing orders of magnitude more transactions than Visa through Lightning network. > Bitcoin is a speculative bubble Bitcoin is speculative investment for sure, doesn't make you right about everything else. > illegal goods exchange token very much legal.
      - simiones 5y ago
        > comedic is your misunderstanding of what Bitcoin uses energy for. hint: it's not at all related to transactions per watt, in fact, Bitcoin is already capable of processing orders of magnitude more transactions than Visa through Lightning network. Bitcoin uses energy to secure transaction processing. Every node in the network must prove that it has spent at least this much money/effort on electricity (the exact computational requirements to prove this are constantly adjusted upwards if the algorithm/hardware is becoming too efficient). This works as the signature of a block, which the miner applies to a block that it has verified contains only correct transactions. Now, the Bitcoin network limits the size of blocks, and each transaction has a size of its own - so being able to process N blocks per second (limited by the necessary work imposed by the burden of PoW) is directly proportional to a number of transactions per second that the Bitcoin network can confirm. Visa does the same by updating its ledger, roughly - no need to for the extreme cost of PoW, since you just trust the ledger. Lightning is a separate technology, with different guarantees. It has definitely not been tested on Visa's scale, so any claims about its scalability should be taken with a grain of salt. More importantly, Lightning offers precisely 0 of Bitcoin's guarantees of transaction validity. In fact, if a Lightning node goes offline, its trivial to double spend bitcoin on the Lightning network - with the only risk that you may lose all the bitcoin you added to the channel if the node later comes back online and verifies this before you can cancel. It's also trivial to do denial of service attacks on a Lightning node, as you can always advertise channels then drop them, reverting all transactions at little cost to you. > very much legal. There is no good/service that is (1) legal to acquire in country X but (2) can't be acquired more cheaply and easily with regular money than with BTC. Note that some goods/services that are illegal to acquire in country X may be perfectly moral to acquire - such as donations to wikileaks.
WakiMiko 5y ago
Lol
dontlaugh 5y ago
integricho 5y ago
this is probably sarcasm.
- keymone 5y ago
  Not at all! I can defend my position.
cute_boi 5y ago
I wish I hadn't read this comment :(

There is zero waste in PoW, it’s the most efficient decentralized trustless digital money ledger in existence. Your dislike of it doesn’t change laws of physics.

troymc 5y ago

Citation needed.

simiones 5y ago

That's like saying that coal power plants are the least polluting non-radioactive solid fuel power generating plants in existence. It's true, but it's irrelevant: we don't need a decentralized trustless digital "money" ledger any more than we need non-radioactive solid fuel power plants. It would be nice to have decentralized trust-less digital money, but Bitcoin doesn't work as money, and it's not that nice compared to its no good very bad terrible energy waste.

richardwhiuk 5y ago
(Ignoring the fact that coal power plants spew radioactive dust)
keymone 5y ago
You don’t need. I need and a few others too. Bitcoin works great. Edit: oh, and no, it doesn’t waste anything, all the energy is used with a purpose and maximum efficiency.
- simiones 5y ago
  > I need and a few others too A few people shouldn't get to use as much energy as a modern industrial country of millions for any purpose that only serves them. And calling this "maximum efficiency" when Visa can process the same amount of transactions on a few watts is quite comedic. Bitcoin is a speculative bubble + illegal goods exchange token. No more.
  - keymone 5y ago
    I can use as much energy as i can afford to buy on an open market, just like any other market participant. > Visa can process the same amount of transactions on a few watts comedic is your misunderstanding of what Bitcoin uses energy for. hint: it's not at all related to transactions per watt, in fact, Bitcoin is already capable of processing orders of magnitude more transactions than Visa through Lightning network. > Bitcoin is a speculative bubble Bitcoin is speculative investment for sure, doesn't make you right about everything else. > illegal goods exchange token very much legal.
    - simiones 5y ago
      > comedic is your misunderstanding of what Bitcoin uses energy for. hint: it's not at all related to transactions per watt, in fact, Bitcoin is already capable of processing orders of magnitude more transactions than Visa through Lightning network. Bitcoin uses energy to secure transaction processing. Every node in the network must prove that it has spent at least this much money/effort on electricity (the exact computational requirements to prove this are constantly adjusted upwards if the algorithm/hardware is becoming too efficient). This works as the signature of a block, which the miner applies to a block that it has verified contains only correct transactions. Now, the Bitcoin network limits the size of blocks, and each transaction has a size of its own - so being able to process N blocks per second (limited by the necessary work imposed by the burden of PoW) is directly proportional to a number of transactions per second that the Bitcoin network can confirm. Visa does the same by updating its ledger, roughly - no need to for the extreme cost of PoW, since you just trust the ledger. Lightning is a separate technology, with different guarantees. It has definitely not been tested on Visa's scale, so any claims about its scalability should be taken with a grain of salt. More importantly, Lightning offers precisely 0 of Bitcoin's guarantees of transaction validity. In fact, if a Lightning node goes offline, its trivial to double spend bitcoin on the Lightning network - with the only risk that you may lose all the bitcoin you added to the channel if the node later comes back online and verifies this before you can cancel. It's also trivial to do denial of service attacks on a Lightning node, as you can always advertise channels then drop them, reverting all transactions at little cost to you. > very much legal. There is no good/service that is (1) legal to acquire in country X but (2) can't be acquired more cheaply and easily with regular money than with BTC. Note that some goods/services that are illegal to acquire in country X may be perfectly moral to acquire - such as donations to wikileaks.

WakiMiko 5y ago

Lol

dontlaugh 5y ago

integricho 5y ago

this is probably sarcasm.

keymone 5y ago
Not at all! I can defend my position.

cute_boi 5y ago

I wish I hadn't read this comment :(