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We might be going in circles a bit here. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding something. Docker was released with Dockerfiles, registry support (maybe not Docker Hub,
by tombh 5y ago
We might be going in circles a bit here. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding something. Docker was released with Dockerfiles, registry support (maybe not Docker Hub, I don't remember), a generous CLI; `start`, `build`, `ps`, etc. So I would very much say the majority of the ecosystem existed before Kubernetes.
Yes LXC and cgroups were Google contributions before the existence of Docker. But jails and containers in general were also general ideas before LXC and cgroups, I think most notably in BSD.
I feel like we must have had different experiences of that period 8 or so years ago. I distinctly remember the hype and bandwagon feeling of Docker's release. I remember various projects trying to capitalise on Docker to make PaaS-type projects; Swarm, Deis, Flynn (even my own Peas project), before Kubernetes came along. It seems so clear to me that Google were reactive rather than proactive. I really don't think Kubernetes would be a thing without Docker.
- joshuamorton 5y agoI don't really dispute much you say here (although I'd argue that calling Dockers API an "ecosystem" and "best practices" is a stretch, do you write your dockerfiles the same way you did today as in 2013?). Like yes, k8s had to come after docker. What I dispute is how any of that is the spiritual successor of heroku (or GAE or any other PaaS). And even then I think you understimate googles contribution of "we've literally been doing container orchestration for longer than anyone else, here's tooling that is built with lessons we've learned in mind". That's far more than just "money and influence", and I don't think it's "exploitative".
- tombh 5y agoThat's a very fair criticism of my use of "exploited". And also I accept that "ecosystem" could be a descriptive stretch for Docker's release day. I think in the same way that you're concerned I'm misrepresenting Google, I'm concerned that the documentary misrepresents the landscape of developers and projects that set the scene for Google's Kubernetes. Yes Google made significant contributions to the story that led up to Kubernetes, but crucially, I believe they didn't nurture the culture, they didn't create the mindset that makes developers (and managers) ready to think in a containerised way. And I think that's important because the smaller voices that did make those innovations easily get drowned out by the might of Google.
- pjmlp 5y agoContainers as concept predate BSD stuff, HP-UX and Tru64 were two UNIXes that had them first, following on previous enterprise computing platforms.