4 ms·

Why the West’s Diplomacy with Russia Keeps Failing

4 points by civilized 5y ago

m348e912 5y ago
I saw a quote on twitter today that stuck with me. "Imagine if Putin, absent any proof, declared “Canada is going to invade the U.S”. Then Canada said “no we aren’t”, and U.S agencies agreed “no they aren’t”—but Putin moved his troops into our region to “help” anyway. That is exactly what Biden is doing in Ukraine right now."
- monkeydreams 5y ago
  > That is exactly what Biden is doing in Ukraine right now. Imagine if Putin, absent any proof, declared "Canada is going to invade the U.S.". Then Canada said "no we aren't" and the US agencies said "Yes, we are seeing a significant build up of troops and materiel along our northern borders with Canada plus we have caught several Canadian intelligence operatives, some with weapons and explosives, operating in the disputed regions, plus Canada invaded and still holds significant border regions including both regions claimed as parts of Canada, and other regions which are being held by US Separatist groups." - and then the US requested assistance and Putin moved his troops to "help" by working with neighbouring countries who have offered to house Russian troops. This is exactly what Biden is doing in Ukraine right now.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  That would be a good analogy, if Canada had already invaded and annexed part of US territory in the past 10 years, and Canada was supporting one side in an American civil war, and Canada was making threats to stop the US signing international treaties, and Putin was sending troops to countries that used to live under Canadian domination, and Canada had the world's biggest nuclear arsenal, and if everything else was completely different.
  - civilized 5y ago
    Also, Canada conquered Washington State in 2014, has been sponsoring a violent separatist movement in Vermont since 2014, and is openly massing troops near the rest of US border. Yes, maybe the world would distrust Canada and think of them as filthy lying warmongering scumbags who need to be dealt with the hard way, if all of this was the case. Putin is evil. There is no question that obstructing his evil plans is a desirable goal. The only question is tactics and cost benefit analysis.
morpheos137 5y ago
Speaking as an educated Westerner, the article is ridiculous on its face. Reading between the lines of the article the answer is clear...kayfabe or pretend incompetence. The author portrays Western diplomats as well intentioned but happless paragons of virtue while portraying Russia diplomats as venial automatons captured by shadowy corrupt interests. Here are the facts, politicians on all sides have diverse interests that drive them. They are rarely simple or pure. Specifically the American interest in keeping Europe in its economic orbit and even purchasing LNG underlies British and American motivations. The Russian interest is also economic, Eurasian integration, and even more so, nationalistic, wounded pride. Talking about supporting regime change in Russia would be received as well as it would be if Russia supported in in the USA. Both Russia and the USA are proud nations and think themselves exceptional. So is the UK. The way out of this is for everybody to recognise other nations have legitimate interest and to recognise nobody is exceptional. Thus the west wants failed diplomacy with Russia because it wants to limit Russia's competition in the European market for things like fuel.
- smt88 5y ago
  > The way out of this is for everybody to recognise other nations have legitimate interest and to recognise nobody is exceptional. I'd be fine with this except that Russia is ruled by a unscrupulous dictator who assassinates his political opponents, as well as his oligarch cronies. The Russian government's interests don't represent the Russian people's interests, and that makes them less legitimate.
  - morpheos137 5y ago
    Do you have a reliable source for the ideas that Putin is a dictator and that he lacks popular support?
    - smt88 5y ago
      Putin is a dictator because he doesn't allow free, democratic elections. Asking for a citation that Russia is a democracy is ridiculous. You need to cite sources that it is a free democracy (if you even think that) because it's by far the more outlandish and fringy position of the two.

4 points by civilized 5y ago

I saw a quote on twitter today that stuck with me. "Imagine if Putin, absent any proof, declared “Canada is going to invade the U.S”. Then Canada said “no we aren’t”, and U.S agencies agreed “no they aren’t”—but Putin moved his troops into our region to “help” anyway. That is exactly what Biden is doing in Ukraine right now."

monkeydreams 5y ago
> That is exactly what Biden is doing in Ukraine right now. Imagine if Putin, absent any proof, declared "Canada is going to invade the U.S.". Then Canada said "no we aren't" and the US agencies said "Yes, we are seeing a significant build up of troops and materiel along our northern borders with Canada plus we have caught several Canadian intelligence operatives, some with weapons and explosives, operating in the disputed regions, plus Canada invaded and still holds significant border regions including both regions claimed as parts of Canada, and other regions which are being held by US Separatist groups." - and then the US requested assistance and Putin moved his troops to "help" by working with neighbouring countries who have offered to house Russian troops. This is exactly what Biden is doing in Ukraine right now.
dane-pgp 5y ago
That would be a good analogy, if Canada had already invaded and annexed part of US territory in the past 10 years, and Canada was supporting one side in an American civil war, and Canada was making threats to stop the US signing international treaties, and Putin was sending troops to countries that used to live under Canadian domination, and Canada had the world's biggest nuclear arsenal, and if everything else was completely different.
- civilized 5y ago
  Also, Canada conquered Washington State in 2014, has been sponsoring a violent separatist movement in Vermont since 2014, and is openly massing troops near the rest of US border. Yes, maybe the world would distrust Canada and think of them as filthy lying warmongering scumbags who need to be dealt with the hard way, if all of this was the case. Putin is evil. There is no question that obstructing his evil plans is a desirable goal. The only question is tactics and cost benefit analysis.

morpheos137 5y ago

Speaking as an educated Westerner, the article is ridiculous on its face. Reading between the lines of the article the answer is clear...kayfabe or pretend incompetence. The author portrays Western diplomats as well intentioned but happless paragons of virtue while portraying Russia diplomats as venial automatons captured by shadowy corrupt interests. Here are the facts, politicians on all sides have diverse interests that drive them. They are rarely simple or pure. Specifically the American interest in keeping Europe in its economic orbit and even purchasing LNG underlies British and American motivations. The Russian interest is also economic, Eurasian integration, and even more so, nationalistic, wounded pride. Talking about supporting regime change in Russia would be received as well as it would be if Russia supported in in the USA. Both Russia and the USA are proud nations and think themselves exceptional. So is the UK. The way out of this is for everybody to recognise other nations have legitimate interest and to recognise nobody is exceptional. Thus the west wants failed diplomacy with Russia because it wants to limit Russia's competition in the European market for things like fuel.

smt88 5y ago
> The way out of this is for everybody to recognise other nations have legitimate interest and to recognise nobody is exceptional. I'd be fine with this except that Russia is ruled by a unscrupulous dictator who assassinates his political opponents, as well as his oligarch cronies. The Russian government's interests don't represent the Russian people's interests, and that makes them less legitimate.
- morpheos137 5y ago
  Do you have a reliable source for the ideas that Putin is a dictator and that he lacks popular support?
  - smt88 5y ago
    Putin is a dictator because he doesn't allow free, democratic elections. Asking for a citation that Russia is a democracy is ridiculous. You need to cite sources that it is a free democracy (if you even think that) because it's by far the more outlandish and fringy position of the two.