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One of things that puts me off Postgres is the constantly shouting "Postgres is better" (and please, we already know in which areas Postgres is better, nobody i

by rickmb 15y ago

One of things that puts me off Postgres is the constantly shouting "Postgres is better" (and please, we already know in which areas Postgres is better, nobody is debating that) without ever addressing the actual needs of the vast majority of MySQL-users. Most of them aren't DBA's, and they don't need to be for the purpose for which they use the DB. For them, MySQL is a tool that just works, without issues. And they certainly don't have any need to deal with the less than helpful Postgres community, touting "advantages" that are completely irrelevant to them. Hell, most MySQL users only use a fraction of the features in MySQL. If they ever migrate to a different DB, it's more likely to be a MySQL-fork. Although Postgres could very well replace MySQL, the Postgres community chooses not to address that audience. Which is fine, but than please stop pointlessly pissing on MySQL at every available opportunity...

justin_vanw 15y ago
One of the things that puts me off the Mysql community are all the people shouting "Mysql is good enough". I've had to professionally administer both mysql and postgresql installations. Mysql is an awful piece of software. Every second spent using it is painful. You say 'it just works', and in that case it really doesn't matter what you use. If you haven't run into bugs/quirks/problems with whatever datastore you use, whether sql, or nosql, whether open or closed source, you haven't pushed it very hard. All software has rough edges and bugs. I think you will have a very hard time finding people who have used both mysql and some other database, whether sql-server, postgresql, or oracle (or even firebird) that would have a very high opinion of it. Now, what are the 'actual needs' of the vast majority of MySQL users that Postgresql doesn't satisfy? I hope that requirement isn't 'open source' :)
- cageface 15y ago
  Indeed. It's like a badge of ignorance worn by people that have never used a real database. Sometimes the people telling you something is better are just trying to do you a favor. The Postgres folks are a model of advocacy, in my opinion, mostly leading by example.
  - rwmj 15y ago
    The people telling you MySQL is good enough / better are also doing you a favour ... You can more easily tell they don't know very much about databases :-)
jeffdavis 15y ago
"constantly shouting 'Postgres is better'" The person to whom you replied did not say that. I read it more like "Oracle can mess up MySQL if they want, because we still have this great alternative called 'postgres'". "without ever addressing the actual needs of the vast majority of MySQL-users." Your comment struck me because I still have a piece of paper next to me with a list of all of the complaints and feature requests I saw in various discussions around the time of the postgresql 9.1 release. That doesn't mean that every single issue you have is addressed yesterday, but a lot of development is happening in response to the needs of the MySQL community. The most obvious example is replication (9.0, but improved in 9.1), but there's also per-column collation. And you might also consider unlogged tables to be targeted at typical MySQL use-cases. And 9.2 is likely to have index-only scans (covering indexes), for which a patch has already been posted by Robert Haas -- I happen to know mysql users who have been waiting for that feature alone, but it took some groundwork development starting in 9.0. Can you please cite something specific that you feel is not met or being addressed, so that I can add that to my list, too? "touting 'advantages' that are completely irrelevant to them" Well, they might be advantages to somebody -- they were developed for a reason. Postgres folks who have done something interesting like synchronous replication or K-nearest-neighbor indexing aren't going to whisper quietly about them. "If they ever migrate to a different DB, it's more likely to be a MySQL-fork" It's hard to get exact numbers, but a common theme at postgresql user group meetings is people migrating from mysql to postgres or mysql people starting their next project in postgresql. There was a noticeable uptick after 9.0 was released. "than please stop pointlessly pissing on MySQL at every available opportunity" People come here to learn new things and see (and take part in) progress. Please stop declaring the discussion over ("...we already know...nobody is debating that...") and products like MySQL good enough ("...it just works...").

by rickmb 15y ago

justin_vanw 15y ago

One of the things that puts me off the Mysql community are all the people shouting "Mysql is good enough". I've had to professionally administer both mysql and postgresql installations. Mysql is an awful piece of software. Every second spent using it is painful. You say 'it just works', and in that case it really doesn't matter what you use. If you haven't run into bugs/quirks/problems with whatever datastore you use, whether sql, or nosql, whether open or closed source, you haven't pushed it very hard. All software has rough edges and bugs. I think you will have a very hard time finding people who have used both mysql and some other database, whether sql-server, postgresql, or oracle (or even firebird) that would have a very high opinion of it. Now, what are the 'actual needs' of the vast majority of MySQL users that Postgresql doesn't satisfy? I hope that requirement isn't 'open source' :)

cageface 15y ago
Indeed. It's like a badge of ignorance worn by people that have never used a real database. Sometimes the people telling you something is better are just trying to do you a favor. The Postgres folks are a model of advocacy, in my opinion, mostly leading by example.
- rwmj 15y ago
  The people telling you MySQL is good enough / better are also doing you a favour ... You can more easily tell they don't know very much about databases :-)

jeffdavis 15y ago

"constantly shouting 'Postgres is better'" The person to whom you replied did not say that. I read it more like "Oracle can mess up MySQL if they want, because we still have this great alternative called 'postgres'". "without ever addressing the actual needs of the vast majority of MySQL-users." Your comment struck me because I still have a piece of paper next to me with a list of all of the complaints and feature requests I saw in various discussions around the time of the postgresql 9.1 release. That doesn't mean that every single issue you have is addressed yesterday, but a lot of development is happening in response to the needs of the MySQL community. The most obvious example is replication (9.0, but improved in 9.1), but there's also per-column collation. And you might also consider unlogged tables to be targeted at typical MySQL use-cases. And 9.2 is likely to have index-only scans (covering indexes), for which a patch has already been posted by Robert Haas -- I happen to know mysql users who have been waiting for that feature alone, but it took some groundwork development starting in 9.0. Can you please cite something specific that you feel is not met or being addressed, so that I can add that to my list, too? "touting 'advantages' that are completely irrelevant to them" Well, they might be advantages to somebody -- they were developed for a reason. Postgres folks who have done something interesting like synchronous replication or K-nearest-neighbor indexing aren't going to whisper quietly about them. "If they ever migrate to a different DB, it's more likely to be a MySQL-fork" It's hard to get exact numbers, but a common theme at postgresql user group meetings is people migrating from mysql to postgres or mysql people starting their next project in postgresql. There was a noticeable uptick after 9.0 was released. "than please stop pointlessly pissing on MySQL at every available opportunity" People come here to learn new things and see (and take part in) progress. Please stop declaring the discussion over ("...we already know...nobody is debating that...") and products like MySQL good enough ("...it just works...").