5 ms·

If this article is correct I hope that it will get incorporated into public policy swiftly.

by xupybd 5y ago

version_five 5y ago
The rhetoric has moved on to "prevents severe infection" as the reason you have to prove you've been vaccinated.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Okay. I'm not sure about the United States but here in NZ you can't enter a restaurant if you don't have a vaccine. You can't attend a funeral with over 25 people while unvaccinated. You can't attend or have a wedding with over 25 people. I find it hard to think these restrictions can be justified as a public safety measure if they don't lower transmission. Limiting severe infection is up to the individual. They seem more like coercion to me. I think the government should be in the business of education not coercion. I'm triple vaccinated because I think it's the best choice for me, yet I have no right to make that choice for anyone else.
  - berenza 5y ago
    i'm not vaccinated and will not be getting the jab, and i think vaccine mandates are a laughably bad idea, but you could easily just say less severe disease = less pressure on public health systems and "justify" it that way.
    - anoncovid2022 5y ago
      This was my understanding of why it's the way it is in NZ. NZ's hospital system was pretty full before covid, and from my understanding, wouldn't take much to get overwhelmed with covid cases. On the flip side, there are so few unvaccinated now, that I don't know how big of an effect the measures have with regards to unvaccinated restrictions. Having said that, personally I've not had any issues with the current restrictions, they don't impact what I would usually do. But I'm probably the exception, not the rule when it comes to unvaxed people. I'm of mostly of the opinion, the restrictions are of a net positive for us, if you're not vaxxed I would avoid gatherings, especially indoors. Seems kinda reckless if you're going to parties etc while unvaxxed. *not vaccinated, mostly because I don't socialise much so don't see the need, not until I want to fly. I see it as, the longer I can wait, the more we'll know about the vaccine, and hopefully there will be better (more effective) options.
      - xupybd 5y ago
        I guess my point is why does a stretch on the health system warrant removal of personal freedoms. We don't do it for other conditions.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      Why don't we do the same with overweight people or smokers. Sorry you can't go to a restaurant or funeral unless you lose weight or quit smoking. That would take pressure off the public health system.
      - sofixa 5y ago
        Is there an epidemic of smokers or overweight people clogging up to all hospital beds, as was the case with Covid a few times in a few different countries? No? Then it's not comparable.
        berenza 5y ago
        obesity- and smoking-related illnesses take up a huge share of available health care resources. to say they are "clogging up" hospital beds is a little insensitive though.
        sofixa 5y ago
        Patients with heavy Covid cases ( like the ones that needed ventilators to breathe) took all the place in many hospitals and healthcare systems, and then some ( temporary and military hospitals were deployed to help with that). It's not even remotely comparable.
        berenza 5y ago
        i recall looking over the occupancy numbers for the temporary hospitals and hospital ships deployed as a response to the 2020 outbreaks in the UK and US, and they were mostly empty. sadly i cannot find that info now so i guess i'll just have to shrug about it. and i assume "took all the place in many hospitals and healthcare systems" is an exaggeration. i would still have to assert the health care costs to society of obesity and smoking are comparable to the costs of acute covid surges though.
        sofixa 5y ago
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Ego and the belief it could be used against them in campaigns this year will keep most politicians from allowing a change in public health policy due to the results in the paper. "We need more studies" likely will be how they proceed though there's a chance they'll simply try to discredit the authors and discourage anyone else from finding similar results.
- elil17 5y ago
  But this isn’t even a study - it’s one person’s interpretation of a variety of studies, none of which directly show what he is suggesting. In this case, more research is literally needed to have any sort of answer to the question the author is bringing up.
  - berenza 5y ago
    while you wait for more research, i suggest looking at the countries that have ended their mandates this year, and how they are doing, as a cheap and expedient form of research into the question of how useful mandates are.
    - mlyle 5y ago
      We're talking about the efficacy of vaccination in preventing infection. I assume you're talking about ending mask mandates, which seems like a bit of a silly thing to bring up.
      - berenza 5y ago
        you could do it for any covid-related public health measure or mandate, depending on the places you compared. denmark and sweden and norway and the UK are all ending, or have ended, all restrictions this quarter. i recall other countries (and states in the US) have done similar at different times in the past 2 years, but i'm not feeling like googling them right now.
        5y ago
elil17 5y ago
This is not an article, it’s correspondence (e.g. what one guy thinks about some other articles he’s read). Plus, the articles being discussed have very small sample sizes.
- berenza 5y ago
  the "one guy" you are referring to seems to be reputable and experienced enough to be speaking through the lancet. https://www.rmian.org/dr-carlos-francoparedes https://www.rmian.org/dr-carlos-francoparedes
  - mlyle 5y ago
    Sure. But it's not a peer-reviewed Lancet paper. It's just one (well-qualified) person's opinion who disagrees with the current prevailing view held by other well-qualified people.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      Is there a current prevailing expert opinion?
      - mlyle 5y ago
        Current prevailing expert opinion is that vaccination reduces the chance of being infected by about 30-40% with Omicron, based on observational and case control studies. Some studies see no signal of reduced transmission. Other areas see massive effects. It's all confounded because the vaccinated do not behave exactly like the unvaccinated.
witrak 5y ago
Disregarding the correctness of its thesis article will be used by opponents of vaccinations.

If this article is correct I hope that it will get incorporated into public policy swiftly.

by xupybd 5y ago

If this article is correct I hope that it will get incorporated into public policy swiftly.

version_five 5y ago

The rhetoric has moved on to "prevents severe infection" as the reason you have to prove you've been vaccinated.

xupybd 5y ago
Okay. I'm not sure about the United States but here in NZ you can't enter a restaurant if you don't have a vaccine. You can't attend a funeral with over 25 people while unvaccinated. You can't attend or have a wedding with over 25 people. I find it hard to think these restrictions can be justified as a public safety measure if they don't lower transmission. Limiting severe infection is up to the individual. They seem more like coercion to me. I think the government should be in the business of education not coercion. I'm triple vaccinated because I think it's the best choice for me, yet I have no right to make that choice for anyone else.
- berenza 5y ago
  i'm not vaccinated and will not be getting the jab, and i think vaccine mandates are a laughably bad idea, but you could easily just say less severe disease = less pressure on public health systems and "justify" it that way.
  - anoncovid2022 5y ago
    This was my understanding of why it's the way it is in NZ. NZ's hospital system was pretty full before covid, and from my understanding, wouldn't take much to get overwhelmed with covid cases. On the flip side, there are so few unvaccinated now, that I don't know how big of an effect the measures have with regards to unvaccinated restrictions. Having said that, personally I've not had any issues with the current restrictions, they don't impact what I would usually do. But I'm probably the exception, not the rule when it comes to unvaxed people. I'm of mostly of the opinion, the restrictions are of a net positive for us, if you're not vaxxed I would avoid gatherings, especially indoors. Seems kinda reckless if you're going to parties etc while unvaxxed. *not vaccinated, mostly because I don't socialise much so don't see the need, not until I want to fly. I see it as, the longer I can wait, the more we'll know about the vaccine, and hopefully there will be better (more effective) options.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      I guess my point is why does a stretch on the health system warrant removal of personal freedoms. We don't do it for other conditions.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    Why don't we do the same with overweight people or smokers. Sorry you can't go to a restaurant or funeral unless you lose weight or quit smoking. That would take pressure off the public health system.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      Is there an epidemic of smokers or overweight people clogging up to all hospital beds, as was the case with Covid a few times in a few different countries? No? Then it's not comparable.
      - berenza 5y ago
        obesity- and smoking-related illnesses take up a huge share of available health care resources. to say they are "clogging up" hospital beds is a little insensitive though.
        sofixa 5y ago
        Patients with heavy Covid cases ( like the ones that needed ventilators to breathe) took all the place in many hospitals and healthcare systems, and then some ( temporary and military hospitals were deployed to help with that). It's not even remotely comparable.
        berenza 5y ago
        i recall looking over the occupancy numbers for the temporary hospitals and hospital ships deployed as a response to the 2020 outbreaks in the UK and US, and they were mostly empty. sadly i cannot find that info now so i guess i'll just have to shrug about it. and i assume "took all the place in many hospitals and healthcare systems" is an exaggeration. i would still have to assert the health care costs to society of obesity and smoking are comparable to the costs of acute covid surges though.
        sofixa 5y ago

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Ego and the belief it could be used against them in campaigns this year will keep most politicians from allowing a change in public health policy due to the results in the paper. "We need more studies" likely will be how they proceed though there's a chance they'll simply try to discredit the authors and discourage anyone else from finding similar results.

elil17 5y ago
But this isn’t even a study - it’s one person’s interpretation of a variety of studies, none of which directly show what he is suggesting. In this case, more research is literally needed to have any sort of answer to the question the author is bringing up.
- berenza 5y ago
  while you wait for more research, i suggest looking at the countries that have ended their mandates this year, and how they are doing, as a cheap and expedient form of research into the question of how useful mandates are.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    We're talking about the efficacy of vaccination in preventing infection. I assume you're talking about ending mask mandates, which seems like a bit of a silly thing to bring up.
    - berenza 5y ago
      you could do it for any covid-related public health measure or mandate, depending on the places you compared. denmark and sweden and norway and the UK are all ending, or have ended, all restrictions this quarter. i recall other countries (and states in the US) have done similar at different times in the past 2 years, but i'm not feeling like googling them right now.
      - 5y ago

elil17 5y ago

This is not an article, it’s correspondence (e.g. what one guy thinks about some other articles he’s read). Plus, the articles being discussed have very small sample sizes.

berenza 5y ago
the "one guy" you are referring to seems to be reputable and experienced enough to be speaking through the lancet. https://www.rmian.org/dr-carlos-francoparedes https://www.rmian.org/dr-carlos-francoparedes
- mlyle 5y ago
  Sure. But it's not a peer-reviewed Lancet paper. It's just one (well-qualified) person's opinion who disagrees with the current prevailing view held by other well-qualified people.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    Is there a current prevailing expert opinion?
    - mlyle 5y ago
      Current prevailing expert opinion is that vaccination reduces the chance of being infected by about 30-40% with Omicron, based on observational and case control studies. Some studies see no signal of reduced transmission. Other areas see massive effects. It's all confounded because the vaccinated do not behave exactly like the unvaccinated.

witrak 5y ago

Disregarding the correctness of its thesis article will be used by opponents of vaccinations.