8 ms·

IBM executives called older workers 'dinobabies'

99 points by thenaturalist 5y ago

AgedWorkers 5y ago
PaulHoule 5y ago
I knew somebody who might have been the last person from Elmira, NY working for IBM. Not long after IBM blew up their email system, he left.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  You mean Lotus Notes?
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    yep
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      That was a nightmare.
willcipriano 5y ago
"They really don't understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat for us." It reads like a onion article.
- gxt 5y ago
  IBM is an onion, every layer you peel makes you cry.
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  Their execs also apparently need to remember that email is permanent. Maybe they aren’t digital natives?
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    Even people who grew up in the digital age (say, 25 and younger), not everyone understands that the internet can be permanent, and that deleting on your computer doesn’t mean it’s deleted server side.
- akomtu 5y ago
  More like a few reddit moderators got exec roles in IBM to help it implement the new digital and social vision in the era of blockchain management. Once IBM gets blockchain enough, those execs will move on to greener pastures.
jmpman 5y ago
I’ve had IBM recruiters reach out to me. Each time I reference these age discrimination lawsuits as the reason I refuse to consider them. Why should I join a company that is going to actively try to get rid of me in a few years. Good luck getting experienced hire to return your calls now.
- reggie_hacker 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - f3fd 5y ago
    ?
    - copperwater69 5y ago
      its called being based
      - nsajko 5y ago
        Refs: https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-and-redpilled https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-and-redpilled
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
labrador 5y ago
It must be tough for a young executive to get up in front of the group and outline your new strategy to great excitement only to get an email from the dinobaby saying basically "Yeah, your idea was tried once in the 70's and a couple times in the 80's and it doesn't work. Here's several book references that go into great length why your idea seems like a good one on the surface, but really is one of the worst ideas that people keep coming up with"
- aahortwwy 5y ago
  I experienced both sides of this in five years at a company in hypergrowth. In year 1, I was determined to accomplish X and ignored the skeptical comments of some colleagues who'd been at the company longer than me. I failed and wasted some time. In years 4 and 5, new colleagues were determined to accomplish X and ignored my skeptical comments. I learned so much at that job.
  - hinkley 5y ago
    It is a matter of kind though. One kind is realism, the other is cynicism. Optimists often lump the two together but they are different things. If the laws of physics or information theory prevent something, by all means be a wet blanket. Loudly and often If cultural turf wars in the company prevent something, often the New Guy can succeed where others have failed. If they fall flat enough they can join the Cynics Club with the rest of you, but telling them they will fail just cements your notion of what can and can't be done. Being repeatedly asked the same question by different people at different times and using different phrasing does occasionally get people to reflect on their assumptions. It is in my experience worth letting them invest the time and energy into the attempt. They're new, what's really the opportunity cost of letting them 'waste time on a lost cause'?
- nickkell 5y ago
  What was true in the 70s and 80s isn't necessarily true today. Technology and attitudes both change.
  - 5y ago
imperfect_light 5y ago
I'm going to guess that most of the executives aren't that much younger than the people they are calling dinobabies.
m2f2 5y ago
Curiously, this criteria didn't apply to Ginni, Sam and the like. Also, it seemed so weird to me that IBM's primary goal had to be to pump share value to $200 by selling whatever they could sell, with the sole long term advantage was for the very same managers who held share options, and were close to retirement. I left in 2012.
rdtsc 5y ago
The IBM executives don’t seem particularly young to me: https://www.ibm.com/investor/governance/senior-leadership https://www.ibm.com/investor/governance/senior-leadership I suspect there is a good amount of projection happening. They view themselves as old, overpaid, not doing enough work, lacking creativity and ability to engage with the “digital” community. So they assume that is true for everyone under them and took drastic measures to “fix” the problem. It would be interesting to see who exactly sent those emails. Will they publicly stand by those words and defend them?
nix23 5y ago
Funny...when the real dino and baby (is not understanding it's surrounding fully) is IBM itself...once more IBM shows complete lack of self-reflection.
frozenport 5y ago
>> In 2020, the median age of IBM's US workforce was 48, the same as it was ten years prior, he added. That is older than median. I can understand the position of executives who are worried.
- pc86 5y ago
  I don't know, personally I would need more information than the median age in order to be "worried" about anything.
zxcvbn4038 5y ago
This is very typical of IBM, you can find lawsuits going back decades. When you get near retirement age they either fire you for performance or relocate your position to a third world country and only pay local wages. In the US it is very difficult to bring an age discrimination lawsuit, if you do so anyway, and if you are successful, they simply don’t pay the judgement. Start to Google the subject and you’ll find all sorts of mailing lists, web sites, and support groups. And if you think all of that is bad then wait until you read up on their role in Hitler’s final solution - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
PHGamer 5y ago
one the one hand. it is age discrimination on the other hand there are winds of change and the truth is unless your hip to the climate you will and probably should be replaced because business is going in a different direction and the customers are different. How many people had their parents work at a company for along time? that would be bad advice to give to a kid now a days. If you like things the way they are and believe the new stuff is wrong well thats politics and you better be good at arguing your case. some cases the dinos actually win. i know young people are getting hip to right to repair which was a given back in the day when things were simpler so sometimes old ideas are refreshed. other times like (on prem) kinda died off and cloud is the way most people are going (i remember aruging with a freind in 2011 about using aws and he thought it was the dumbest thing but here were are with most stuff in the cloud now)
- pc86 5y ago
  There is a difference between "you're over 40, get out" and "you don't understand how to do this job in the current tech landscape, get out." One is age discrimination and is illegal. One is smart business. As for "here were are with most stuff in the cloud now" that is 100% a function of what industry you're in. Healthcare, banking (consumer and investment), security, very little of that is in the cloud and they're huge industries controlling hundreds of billions of dollars a year.

99 points by thenaturalist 5y ago

I knew somebody who might have been the last person from Elmira, NY working for IBM. Not long after IBM blew up their email system, he left.

ncmncm 5y ago
You mean Lotus Notes?
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  yep
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    That was a nightmare.

willcipriano 5y ago

"They really don't understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat for us." It reads like a onion article.

gxt 5y ago
IBM is an onion, every layer you peel makes you cry.
kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
Their execs also apparently need to remember that email is permanent. Maybe they aren’t digital natives?
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  Even people who grew up in the digital age (say, 25 and younger), not everyone understands that the internet can be permanent, and that deleting on your computer doesn’t mean it’s deleted server side.
akomtu 5y ago
More like a few reddit moderators got exec roles in IBM to help it implement the new digital and social vision in the era of blockchain management. Once IBM gets blockchain enough, those execs will move on to greener pastures.

jmpman 5y ago

I’ve had IBM recruiters reach out to me. Each time I reference these age discrimination lawsuits as the reason I refuse to consider them. Why should I join a company that is going to actively try to get rid of me in a few years. Good luck getting experienced hire to return your calls now.

reggie_hacker 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- f3fd 5y ago
  ?
  - copperwater69 5y ago
    its called being based
    - nsajko 5y ago
      Refs: https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/based/ https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-and-redpilled https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based-and-redpilled
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

labrador 5y ago

It must be tough for a young executive to get up in front of the group and outline your new strategy to great excitement only to get an email from the dinobaby saying basically "Yeah, your idea was tried once in the 70's and a couple times in the 80's and it doesn't work. Here's several book references that go into great length why your idea seems like a good one on the surface, but really is one of the worst ideas that people keep coming up with"

aahortwwy 5y ago
I experienced both sides of this in five years at a company in hypergrowth. In year 1, I was determined to accomplish X and ignored the skeptical comments of some colleagues who'd been at the company longer than me. I failed and wasted some time. In years 4 and 5, new colleagues were determined to accomplish X and ignored my skeptical comments. I learned so much at that job.
- hinkley 5y ago
  It is a matter of kind though. One kind is realism, the other is cynicism. Optimists often lump the two together but they are different things. If the laws of physics or information theory prevent something, by all means be a wet blanket. Loudly and often If cultural turf wars in the company prevent something, often the New Guy can succeed where others have failed. If they fall flat enough they can join the Cynics Club with the rest of you, but telling them they will fail just cements your notion of what can and can't be done. Being repeatedly asked the same question by different people at different times and using different phrasing does occasionally get people to reflect on their assumptions. It is in my experience worth letting them invest the time and energy into the attempt. They're new, what's really the opportunity cost of letting them 'waste time on a lost cause'?
nickkell 5y ago
What was true in the 70s and 80s isn't necessarily true today. Technology and attitudes both change.
- 5y ago

imperfect_light 5y ago

I'm going to guess that most of the executives aren't that much younger than the people they are calling dinobabies.

m2f2 5y ago

Curiously, this criteria didn't apply to Ginni, Sam and the like. Also, it seemed so weird to me that IBM's primary goal had to be to pump share value to $200 by selling whatever they could sell, with the sole long term advantage was for the very same managers who held share options, and were close to retirement. I left in 2012.

rdtsc 5y ago

The IBM executives don’t seem particularly young to me: https://www.ibm.com/investor/governance/senior-leadership https://www.ibm.com/investor/governance/senior-leadership I suspect there is a good amount of projection happening. They view themselves as old, overpaid, not doing enough work, lacking creativity and ability to engage with the “digital” community. So they assume that is true for everyone under them and took drastic measures to “fix” the problem. It would be interesting to see who exactly sent those emails. Will they publicly stand by those words and defend them?

nix23 5y ago

Funny...when the real dino and baby (is not understanding it's surrounding fully) is IBM itself...once more IBM shows complete lack of self-reflection.

frozenport 5y ago

>> In 2020, the median age of IBM's US workforce was 48, the same as it was ten years prior, he added. That is older than median. I can understand the position of executives who are worried.

pc86 5y ago
I don't know, personally I would need more information than the median age in order to be "worried" about anything.

zxcvbn4038 5y ago

This is very typical of IBM, you can find lawsuits going back decades. When you get near retirement age they either fire you for performance or relocate your position to a third world country and only pay local wages. In the US it is very difficult to bring an age discrimination lawsuit, if you do so anyway, and if you are successful, they simply don’t pay the judgement. Start to Google the subject and you’ll find all sorts of mailing lists, web sites, and support groups. And if you think all of that is bad then wait until you read up on their role in Hitler’s final solution - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

PHGamer 5y ago

one the one hand. it is age discrimination on the other hand there are winds of change and the truth is unless your hip to the climate you will and probably should be replaced because business is going in a different direction and the customers are different. How many people had their parents work at a company for along time? that would be bad advice to give to a kid now a days. If you like things the way they are and believe the new stuff is wrong well thats politics and you better be good at arguing your case. some cases the dinos actually win. i know young people are getting hip to right to repair which was a given back in the day when things were simpler so sometimes old ideas are refreshed. other times like (on prem) kinda died off and cloud is the way most people are going (i remember aruging with a freind in 2011 about using aws and he thought it was the dumbest thing but here were are with most stuff in the cloud now)

pc86 5y ago
There is a difference between "you're over 40, get out" and "you don't understand how to do this job in the current tech landscape, get out." One is age discrimination and is illegal. One is smart business. As for "here were are with most stuff in the cloud now" that is 100% a function of what industry you're in. Healthcare, banking (consumer and investment), security, very little of that is in the cloud and they're huge industries controlling hundreds of billions of dollars a year.