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Thank you for the insight on where you draw the line, that explains a lot. Still, a hard terrain to navigate on when you can say something and when you can't, e
by artemonster 5y ago
Thank you for the insight on where you draw the line, that explains a lot. Still, a hard terrain to navigate on when you can say something and when you can't, even if you make correct statements backed up by data. Just to be clear we're on the same page: I've made absolutely same observation about other bmw drivers. and we, humans, do exactly that: observe and generalize.
Regarding my personal beliefs, as I've stated above "I personally believe in statistics and I believe you cannot use* them to make derogatory* generalizations"
1. regarding "use": you cannot use specifically statistics/data to justify any *-ist remark. "I hate bmw drivers because most of them are assholes on the road", an example of that (not what you said!)
2. regarding "derogatory": you can(and should!) use statistics to do (just) generalizations, i.e. in a context of talking about group behaviour. "most of bmw drivers are agressive and dangerous drivers, as shown by this data" is a perfectly fine statement.
My problem is that you can say that sort of statements about certain group of drivers, but if you would have pulled up a similar argument and used (for example) PoC and crime rates, you would have been torn to pieces by everyone. And for me, on the surface, the statement and the structure would be absolutely the same (and it is STILL not escalated to exclusion and dehumanization). So whats the difference? And why different treatment? People above are arguing that buying BMW its a choice and using inherent (immutable) properties (i.e. race/gender) is different for the case of stereotyping, but I cannot see the key difference that makes okay to do one and not okay to do another.
- civilized 5y agoOn the difference between making these generalizations along racial lines vs other things - it mostly comes down to the fact that our ancestors ruined the fun. After humanity had used certain type of statements to justify mass dehumanization, slavery, Holocaust, etc., people don't want to see that happen again. Then it's just a question of how big a red circle we want to draw around that kind of talk. Most people found a simple ban on racial generalizations relatively intuitive and practical. I'd prefer a more freewheeling culture but it's above my pay grade at this point. Side point - in general an important thing to remember here is the big, big difference between P(A|B) and P(B|A). It could be the case that all aggressive drivers I ever encounter are BMW drivers, and yet the rate of aggressive BMW drivers could be very low and of little practical predictive value on any individual BMW driver (e.g. 1% of BMW drivers versus 0% for non-BMW drivers). People are already bad at distinguishing an implication and its converse, and they're quite a bit worse at the statistical version of the same. Arguably this is a reason we should keep our generalizations to ourselves, even if they're accurate. A lot of people will take them to mean a lot more than they do. It's not my style, but I do recognize the risk.
- artemonster 5y agothank you for your explanations