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This is just saying “that’s what you get for playing with crypto you degenerate”. The fact is wires can also be irreversible and you cannot use the court syste

This is just saying “that’s what you get for playing with crypto you degenerate”. The fact is wires can also be irreversible and you cannot use the court system as a blunt instrument outside your jurisdiction. The value transmission medium isn’t the problem here.

amptorn 5y ago
Can a smart contract make a wire transfer with your knowledge?
gonehome 5y ago
Yeah the op comment wasn’t made in good faith. Try getting your money back when getting scammed via venmo or PayPal - rarely any better, and if you’re selling you’re more likely to get scammed with those services than crypto.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  I have done multiple clawbacks via payment processors. In each case, I escalated (vendor -> processor -> my bank -> CFPB) until the dispute was resolved to my satisfaction. In nearly all cases, no separate restitution was required: the processor or my bank was able to reverse or halt the ACH transaction before the money settled. In the handful of cases where settlement had already happened, they were able to countermand the transaction.
  - reese_john 5y ago
    Yes but, not sure this is a fair comparison. Doesn't ACH transactions take 1 to 2 business days to settle by design, as they are processed in batch and go through an intermediate clearing house ? Venmo/PayPal/Fedwire transactions should be able to settle in real time, which can be more convenient at the expense of easy reversability
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      Venmo and PayPal are, to the best of my knowledge, settled via ACH if you use a bank as your source of funds. That's what I've always done, since it provides the greatest amount of personal control over my transactions. If you use a payment card (debit or credit) with a payment service, then they might use either the payment card's network or ACH, depending on what the card issuer supports.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    I’ve had a PayPal failure, a PayPal success, an apple pay failure. It’s definitely not a guarantee. Most of the Venmo type scams where people “accidentally” send you money and ask you to send it back or pay for an item with bad funds are not reclaimable from those services based on TOS. In those cases you’d be better off with BTC.
woodruffw 5y ago
> This is just saying “that’s what you get for playing with crypto you degenerate”. No, it isn't. It's a reminder that we have all of this financial structure for a reason. The person you're responding to didn't make any light of the potential victim or call them a degenerate. In traditional finance, you (Joe Shmoe) can't just wire someone ~100M USD, regardless of jurisdiction. There are controls, most of which have been written in blood or tears. Cryptocurrencies will also grow those controls, and we will all rightly question its value when it inevitably does.
- bko 5y ago
  You ever heard of asset forfeiture? There's two sides to everything. Not really "owning" something is great if you're the victim of fraud, but has its downsides when you become a target and someone wants to arbitrarily capture your wealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    Civil asset forfeiture is a national disgrace. But it's also not a disgrace for traditional finance: it's a disgrace with respect to the latitude our justice system gives to individual LEOs and a sign that the government is willing to extrajudicially punish people instead of pursuing justice through the courts. Put another way: assert forfeiture is not some kind of "gotcha" against traditional finance in favor of cryptocurrencies. When law enforcement seizes your bank account, they're going to seize your cryptocurrency accounts too. And if you (unadvisedly) attempt to hide those assets, then you will be making their job in court much easier.
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      Then you missed the point of this whole thing. Some of us would rather die with the keys then let the State steal funds from them. Cryptocurrency is the first technology that lets you take wealth to the grave and keep it there.
cjlars 5y ago
Big difference between manually initiating the transaction and amount vs accidentally signing away everything because of one obscured line of code.

amptorn 5y ago

Can a smart contract make a wire transfer with your knowledge?

gonehome 5y ago

Yeah the op comment wasn’t made in good faith. Try getting your money back when getting scammed via venmo or PayPal - rarely any better, and if you’re selling you’re more likely to get scammed with those services than crypto.

woodruffw 5y ago
I have done multiple clawbacks via payment processors. In each case, I escalated (vendor -> processor -> my bank -> CFPB) until the dispute was resolved to my satisfaction. In nearly all cases, no separate restitution was required: the processor or my bank was able to reverse or halt the ACH transaction before the money settled. In the handful of cases where settlement had already happened, they were able to countermand the transaction.
- reese_john 5y ago
  Yes but, not sure this is a fair comparison. Doesn't ACH transactions take 1 to 2 business days to settle by design, as they are processed in batch and go through an intermediate clearing house ? Venmo/PayPal/Fedwire transactions should be able to settle in real time, which can be more convenient at the expense of easy reversability
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    Venmo and PayPal are, to the best of my knowledge, settled via ACH if you use a bank as your source of funds. That's what I've always done, since it provides the greatest amount of personal control over my transactions. If you use a payment card (debit or credit) with a payment service, then they might use either the payment card's network or ACH, depending on what the card issuer supports.
- gonehome 5y ago
  I’ve had a PayPal failure, a PayPal success, an apple pay failure. It’s definitely not a guarantee. Most of the Venmo type scams where people “accidentally” send you money and ask you to send it back or pay for an item with bad funds are not reclaimable from those services based on TOS. In those cases you’d be better off with BTC.

woodruffw 5y ago

> This is just saying “that’s what you get for playing with crypto you degenerate”. No, it isn't. It's a reminder that we have all of this financial structure for a reason. The person you're responding to didn't make any light of the potential victim or call them a degenerate. In traditional finance, you (Joe Shmoe) can't just wire someone ~100M USD, regardless of jurisdiction. There are controls, most of which have been written in blood or tears. Cryptocurrencies will also grow those controls, and we will all rightly question its value when it inevitably does.

bko 5y ago
You ever heard of asset forfeiture? There's two sides to everything. Not really "owning" something is great if you're the victim of fraud, but has its downsides when you become a target and someone wants to arbitrarily capture your wealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Civil asset forfeiture is a national disgrace. But it's also not a disgrace for traditional finance: it's a disgrace with respect to the latitude our justice system gives to individual LEOs and a sign that the government is willing to extrajudicially punish people instead of pursuing justice through the courts. Put another way: assert forfeiture is not some kind of "gotcha" against traditional finance in favor of cryptocurrencies. When law enforcement seizes your bank account, they're going to seize your cryptocurrency accounts too. And if you (unadvisedly) attempt to hide those assets, then you will be making their job in court much easier.
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    Then you missed the point of this whole thing. Some of us would rather die with the keys then let the State steal funds from them. Cryptocurrency is the first technology that lets you take wealth to the grave and keep it there.

cjlars 5y ago

Big difference between manually initiating the transaction and amount vs accidentally signing away everything because of one obscured line of code.