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This is exactly why I can't bring myself to put anything on any blockchain, no matter how anonymous it claims to be. I assume that someone will end up finding a

by ziml77 5y ago

This is exactly why I can't bring myself to put anything on any blockchain, no matter how anonymous it claims to be. I assume that someone will end up finding a flaw. When that happens, I may as well have been broadcasting everything without any security and privacy mechanisms at all. Not only can the person who's broken it see my history, anyone who knows the flaw can. I realize that things get leaked from centralized services, but there's a barrier to seeing that info. You put yourself at legal risk if you download one of those leaks and get caught. But there's no such risk with a public blockchain since the data was intended to be received by anyone who wants it.

lrvick 5y ago
Remember that every time you withdraw or deposit cash at a bank all serial numbers are logged to you. When you buy something with cash at a business and that cash is later deposited at a bank then a link is logged between you and the vendor. Banks happily sell this sort of information and report it to various government agencies. It is also why most bank/ATM robbers and amateur money launderers get caught. Credit and Debit processors likewise directly log everything and sell it to marketing agencies to target you in detail. If your reason to not use crypto-assets is that they are not private enough then you certainly should not use cash or credit cards either.
- acdha 5y ago
  The difference is that nobody is running around selling credit cards by saying they’re anonymous. Monero is much better than Bitcoin in that regard but it still requires a leap of faith to trust that a complicated tech stack is working. Even if it’s true that banks log serial numbers pervasively - most public sources say the opposite, except for things like money given to robbers - the many businesses which accept cash do not. Again, not perfect but the threat model is much easier for most people to reason about.
  - lrvick 5y ago
    Imagine one needs to make a life or death, but illegal, purchase like a life saving drug for someone unable to meet hospital prices. You would trust cash from your bank before Monero because some public sources you read promises banks never log serials? I do not know what public sources you have read but FWIIW my interactions with financial fraud investigators in private sector and multiple government agencies have convinced me cash transactions and those that make them can be logged in great detail for people of interest if nothing else. While complex I would recommend Monero or tumbled Bitcoin for people that require high privacy over anything else today. It also avoids the major risks of having to meet in person to transact as with cash.
    - acdha 5y ago
      > can be logged in great detail for people of interest if nothing else. That’s the key part: this is very different than all activity being routinely logged. Most of us never need to worry about this and someone in a hypothetical situation like you describe is presumably not a person of interest until afterwards, where that public blockchain history is a risk for the rest of their life. Similarly: > It also avoids the major risks of having to meet in person to transact as with cash. This wouldn’t matter in your hypothetical scenario where physical goods need to be exchanged. Again, my point is that this comes down to the marketing push. Even if the system works as planned, the number of people who made other opsec mistakes is high enough that in practice cash is not less safe.
- burner556 5y ago
  Please provide source RE cash serial number logging and corroboration because I haven’t seen anything like this
- vaidhy 5y ago
  I would love to know how the serial numbers in a cash transaction are logged to me.
  - 0des 5y ago
    Dollars are not fungible, the problem is not that they are logged its that the potential exists at all.
    - ziml77 5y ago
      They could be logged, but unlike blockchain currencies they aren't logged right now which means historical analysis is impossible. And logging isn't inherent to cash. The transaction chain would be broken by anyone who doesn't keep a log. On top of that, the scope of who can see the logs would be limited. I guess the assumption here is that retailers and the like would be compelled to provide that info to the government, but I'd still prefer that over the info going to absolutely anyone who wants it (since "the government" is a subset of "anyone").
      - 0des 5y ago
        Have you seen whereisgeorge.com? Also it is worth bringing up that US banks do this regularly.

by ziml77 5y ago

lrvick 5y ago

Remember that every time you withdraw or deposit cash at a bank all serial numbers are logged to you. When you buy something with cash at a business and that cash is later deposited at a bank then a link is logged between you and the vendor. Banks happily sell this sort of information and report it to various government agencies. It is also why most bank/ATM robbers and amateur money launderers get caught. Credit and Debit processors likewise directly log everything and sell it to marketing agencies to target you in detail. If your reason to not use crypto-assets is that they are not private enough then you certainly should not use cash or credit cards either.

acdha 5y ago
The difference is that nobody is running around selling credit cards by saying they’re anonymous. Monero is much better than Bitcoin in that regard but it still requires a leap of faith to trust that a complicated tech stack is working. Even if it’s true that banks log serial numbers pervasively - most public sources say the opposite, except for things like money given to robbers - the many businesses which accept cash do not. Again, not perfect but the threat model is much easier for most people to reason about.
- lrvick 5y ago
  Imagine one needs to make a life or death, but illegal, purchase like a life saving drug for someone unable to meet hospital prices. You would trust cash from your bank before Monero because some public sources you read promises banks never log serials? I do not know what public sources you have read but FWIIW my interactions with financial fraud investigators in private sector and multiple government agencies have convinced me cash transactions and those that make them can be logged in great detail for people of interest if nothing else. While complex I would recommend Monero or tumbled Bitcoin for people that require high privacy over anything else today. It also avoids the major risks of having to meet in person to transact as with cash.
  - acdha 5y ago
    > can be logged in great detail for people of interest if nothing else. That’s the key part: this is very different than all activity being routinely logged. Most of us never need to worry about this and someone in a hypothetical situation like you describe is presumably not a person of interest until afterwards, where that public blockchain history is a risk for the rest of their life. Similarly: > It also avoids the major risks of having to meet in person to transact as with cash. This wouldn’t matter in your hypothetical scenario where physical goods need to be exchanged. Again, my point is that this comes down to the marketing push. Even if the system works as planned, the number of people who made other opsec mistakes is high enough that in practice cash is not less safe.
burner556 5y ago
Please provide source RE cash serial number logging and corroboration because I haven’t seen anything like this
vaidhy 5y ago
I would love to know how the serial numbers in a cash transaction are logged to me.
- 0des 5y ago
  Dollars are not fungible, the problem is not that they are logged its that the potential exists at all.
  - ziml77 5y ago
    They could be logged, but unlike blockchain currencies they aren't logged right now which means historical analysis is impossible. And logging isn't inherent to cash. The transaction chain would be broken by anyone who doesn't keep a log. On top of that, the scope of who can see the logs would be limited. I guess the assumption here is that retailers and the like would be compelled to provide that info to the government, but I'd still prefer that over the info going to absolutely anyone who wants it (since "the government" is a subset of "anyone").
    - 0des 5y ago
      Have you seen whereisgeorge.com? Also it is worth bringing up that US banks do this regularly.