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I think it's a manifestation of the inherent feeling that many of us developers are doing something mostly useless compared to others. We know that the world co

by _bfhp 5y ago

I think it's a manifestation of the inherent feeling that many of us developers are doing something mostly useless compared to others. We know that the world could be different and we could be working jobs that are physically and/or mentally difficult but also fair and useful. Ursula K. Le Guin puts it thus, from her novel "This Dispossessed": "A child free from the guilt of ownership and the burden of economic competition will grow up with the will to do what needs doing and the capacity for joy in doing it. It is useless work that darkens the heart. The delight of the nursing mother, of the scholar, of the successful hunter, of the good cook, of the skillful maker, of anyone doing needed work and doing it well—this durable joy is perhaps the deepest source of human affection, and of sociality as a whole."

emteycz 5y ago
I can't understand that one. Software fascinates me since I was a child by how universally useful it is. Even for the more manual stuff, computer is still a hyper-useful tool.
- tangjurine 5y ago
  Carpentry is useful, but if you are spending months making a small part you think no one uses or cares about for a lot of money, you might feel useless. Same things goes with anything really.
- batshit_beaver 5y ago
  I think it's much, much more common in the world of software to build things that either no one uses, or fades out pretty quickly. There's a world of difference between taking a week to ship a new button to Chrome at Google (low impact, but at least high visibility) and creating a project from scratch over the course of months for it to be killed off by or not work out for the stakeholders (no impact AND no/low visibility). This happens with most projects. On the other hand, building or fixing something physical you know that at least you're solving a real problem for someone, and it will probably last them a while. Software is constantly churning and evolving precisely because such evolutions are not limited by tools, materials, or constraints of the physical world. Way better for creativity, but rarely leaves us devs feeling proud of the work we've done
MaxBarraclough 5y ago
A similar idea was expressed by Marx, who referred to it as estranged labour. Forgive the lengthy quote: > the object which labor produces – labor's product – confronts it as something alien, as a power independent of the producer. The product of labor is labor which has been embodied in an object, which has become material: it is the objectification of labor. Labor’s realization is its objectification. Under these economic conditions this realization of labor appears as loss of realization for the workers; objectification as loss of the object and bondage to it; appropriation as estrangement, as alienation. > [...] > the worker is related to the product of labor as to an alien object. For on this premise it is clear that the more the worker spends himself, the more powerful becomes the alien world of objects which he creates over and against himself, the poorer he himself – his inner world – becomes, the less belongs to him as his own. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts...
- e4e78a06 5y ago
  Very ironic that the USSR ended up forcing most people into state-chosen jobs. I think it's nice to think of some ideal future where everyone works on what they want to work on but society needs people to do the dirty work that nobody wants to do. Janitor, garbageman, sewer maintenance, warehouse worker, etc. A lot of Marx's ideas are just ideas, not anything that could ever be realized in the real world.
  - hgomersall 5y ago
    In said hypothetical world, the crappy jobs would come with the highest prestige, because nobody would want to do them, so the payoff would need to be something other than reducing the risk of starvation.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Whatever you can say of his prescriptions, many of his descriptions and diagnoses are relevant.
sonofhans 5y ago
Yes! I’m rereading this now. That book is an endless wellspring of reminders about what truly matters.
Karrot_Kream 5y ago
The Dispossessed was a fantastic book but you're taking away the wrong thing if you're using Anarresti propaganda to sum up the work. The full title of the book is "The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia" and Anarres has many problems.
- _bfhp 5y ago
  Good point! Though, I wasn't trying to sum up the book nor was I endorsing the quoted sentences as gospel
analog31 5y ago
"Half of my software budget is wasted, I just don't know which half." I suppose there's a sense in the trades that you know somebody wants something before you do it, because they've asked for it. And you can usually see where it fits into the bigger picture because the interconnected pieces are visually and physically connected. I get a similar satisfaction from being a part time musician. When I show up to play music, it's because somebody has hired me to play music, and within the band there's a specific part that's filled by my work. I also know the quality of my own work instantly as I do it. I love music as an art, but on the bandstand, I'm a tradesman first and an artist second. Working in a tech field, it can be hard to know if what you're making is ever going to matter to anybody, and it's possible to do negative work in the sense of costing more than what it returns. That can be frustrating.

by _bfhp 5y ago

emteycz 5y ago

I can't understand that one. Software fascinates me since I was a child by how universally useful it is. Even for the more manual stuff, computer is still a hyper-useful tool.

tangjurine 5y ago
Carpentry is useful, but if you are spending months making a small part you think no one uses or cares about for a lot of money, you might feel useless. Same things goes with anything really.
batshit_beaver 5y ago
I think it's much, much more common in the world of software to build things that either no one uses, or fades out pretty quickly. There's a world of difference between taking a week to ship a new button to Chrome at Google (low impact, but at least high visibility) and creating a project from scratch over the course of months for it to be killed off by or not work out for the stakeholders (no impact AND no/low visibility). This happens with most projects. On the other hand, building or fixing something physical you know that at least you're solving a real problem for someone, and it will probably last them a while. Software is constantly churning and evolving precisely because such evolutions are not limited by tools, materials, or constraints of the physical world. Way better for creativity, but rarely leaves us devs feeling proud of the work we've done

MaxBarraclough 5y ago

A similar idea was expressed by Marx, who referred to it as estranged labour. Forgive the lengthy quote: > the object which labor produces – labor's product – confronts it as something alien, as a power independent of the producer. The product of labor is labor which has been embodied in an object, which has become material: it is the objectification of labor. Labor’s realization is its objectification. Under these economic conditions this realization of labor appears as loss of realization for the workers; objectification as loss of the object and bondage to it; appropriation as estrangement, as alienation. > [...] > the worker is related to the product of labor as to an alien object. For on this premise it is clear that the more the worker spends himself, the more powerful becomes the alien world of objects which he creates over and against himself, the poorer he himself – his inner world – becomes, the less belongs to him as his own. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts...

e4e78a06 5y ago
Very ironic that the USSR ended up forcing most people into state-chosen jobs. I think it's nice to think of some ideal future where everyone works on what they want to work on but society needs people to do the dirty work that nobody wants to do. Janitor, garbageman, sewer maintenance, warehouse worker, etc. A lot of Marx's ideas are just ideas, not anything that could ever be realized in the real world.
- hgomersall 5y ago
  In said hypothetical world, the crappy jobs would come with the highest prestige, because nobody would want to do them, so the payoff would need to be something other than reducing the risk of starvation.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Whatever you can say of his prescriptions, many of his descriptions and diagnoses are relevant.

sonofhans 5y ago

Yes! I’m rereading this now. That book is an endless wellspring of reminders about what truly matters.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago

The Dispossessed was a fantastic book but you're taking away the wrong thing if you're using Anarresti propaganda to sum up the work. The full title of the book is "The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia" and Anarres has many problems.

_bfhp 5y ago
Good point! Though, I wasn't trying to sum up the book nor was I endorsing the quoted sentences as gospel

analog31 5y ago

"Half of my software budget is wasted, I just don't know which half." I suppose there's a sense in the trades that you know somebody wants something before you do it, because they've asked for it. And you can usually see where it fits into the bigger picture because the interconnected pieces are visually and physically connected. I get a similar satisfaction from being a part time musician. When I show up to play music, it's because somebody has hired me to play music, and within the band there's a specific part that's filled by my work. I also know the quality of my own work instantly as I do it. I love music as an art, but on the bandstand, I'm a tradesman first and an artist second. Working in a tech field, it can be hard to know if what you're making is ever going to matter to anybody, and it's possible to do negative work in the sense of costing more than what it returns. That can be frustrating.