5 ms·

I'm not sure I understand the question. Wheel Analytics augments traditional methods, for which I have great respect (and hundreds of wheelbuilds of experience)

I'm not sure I understand the question. Wheel Analytics augments traditional methods, for which I have great respect (and hundreds of wheelbuilds of experience). Care is taken to preserve traditional ways of working, for example the UI is controlled by foot pedal. Its benefits reside chiefly in the process and I argue better process leads to better wheels. Wheel quality depends on knowledge, time allowed, and concern. By capturing and presenting wheel information this way, you can get the most from your knowledge and skill. By working faster, you can do a better job in the same amount of time.

jacquesm 5y ago
Hm. Ok. For me wheel quality is defined as durability and ability to withstand stress under use. My primary interest when it comes to building wheels where it really matters what you make in the application of tandems, in particular long distance touring bikes where you are taking your bike on a holiday, packed with gear and two adults. A bad wheel can quite literally ruin your whole day, trip or worse. So there are some objective qualities that you could judge wheels by. Consistency is key, and knowing where the limits of the materials used are and how far away from those you are. An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one, the undertensioned wheel will fail gracefully, the overtensioned one will desintegrate. If you are optimizing for speed of building that's another matter altogether, I was hoping for a clear and objective difference in quality of build.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  >An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one Well...an undertensioned wheel is a recipe for broken spokes. Why not correctly tension a wheel? The correct tension is quite a lot higher than most builders go. An overtensioned wheel is not very easy to produce, at high tensions truing the wheel becomes super-critical in that tiny changes move the rim absurd amounts, and that is the point to back off.
  - anthomtb 5y ago
    Is it possible for spokes to gain tension while riding? My intuition says no, which would mean erring on the side of more tension would keep you in the correct range over time. I have heard of top level downhillers using minimal spoke tension for better compliance and traction. They also have professional mechanics and piles of wheels to use for a race weekend. Meaning their wheels have to be just reliable enough to hold together for a 4 minute race run.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Not normally, unless you count the little bit of variation due to different thermal expansion coefficients of rim and spokes but that should not be enough to make a meaningful difference. But they do lose tension over time, so it doesn't hurt to periodically check. That's also a good way to spot cracks in rims, which and do happen especially on bikes that are built once and then used for years.
    - jimnotgym 5y ago
      Interesting, I have stood next to a World Cup winning downhiller begging his mechanic to increase tension in his wheels beyond where the mechanic was happy so his wheels would survive longer. He thought this 'compliance' stuff was bs, and he liked that I agreed with him (hence the conversation). This was a couple of years ago mind, but I would be suprised if it had really changed.
      - anthomtb 5y ago
        A few years back Mike Levy from Pinkbike rode Troy Brosnan's bike and made note of how little tension was in the spokes: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/riding-troy-brosnans-world-cup-dh-bike-crankworx-whistler-2018.html https://www.pinkbike.com/news/riding-troy-brosnans-world-cup.... Paul Aston (World Cup pack fill, former Pinkbike journalist) also made note of experimenting with extremely low tension and implied it worked pretty well: https://www.downtimepodcast.com/paul-aston-2021/ https://www.downtimepodcast.com/paul-aston-2021/ Really though, where you have the resources to experiment with something like spoke tension, you are likely to end up with a couple outliers.
- anthomtb 5y ago
  You are arguing the importance of appropriate spoke tension but also suggesting that measuring tension by ear is perfectly acceptable? That does not add up to me.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Millions of violinists would disagree. You can go by tone to a pretty high degree of consistency. https://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm https://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm
    - anthomtb 5y ago
      Cool article. The pitch based measurement does seem sensible enough for some people. And more accurate then squeezing spokes with your hand. Still, I trust my ability to read a tension meter more than my ability to match pitch. Props to anyone who feels otherwise - pitch pipes are much cheaper than good tension meters.
      - cassianoleal 5y ago
        What about apps that spell out the pitch for you (like guitar/instrument tuners), or even translate it directly to spoke tension? e.g. https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id518870820 https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id51887082...
- wiredfool 5y ago
  Undertensioned wheels will start to fail in about 1-2000k from fatigue in the j bend of the spokes. They're a lot easier to build, because spoke windup and nipple galling don't start to be an issue until you get to decent tensions. There are three failure modes that I've seen for an over-tensioned wheel: 1) The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from. 2) The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components) 3) Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention. For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad. Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim. I used to really like the Mavic Open4 rims with the double eyelets, but that's gone out of style now.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > Undertensioned wheels will start to fail in about 1-2000k from fatigue in the j bend of the spokes. Yes, I've seen a couple of those, typically mail order or equivalent bikes sold without a mechanic involved in the sales process. Guess who gets to fix them :) > They're a lot easier to build, because spoke windup and nipple galling don't start to be an issue until you get to decent tensions. Lubrication during build is the key I think. > The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from. Interesting, I've never seen this at build time but I've seen people that build their own wheels crash terribly because of this, so far only (fortunately) rear wheels. Just thinking about having that happen to a front wheel while on the move is enough to give me views of dentist offices. > The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components) This I've never seen. > Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention. This is the main thing I've come across frequency wise. I suspect some manufacturers don't particularly care about what they ship as long as the customer pays and it makes it out of warranty. > For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad. Yes, logical too. Box or closed section rims can be ridiculously stiff. > Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim. Can you explain the 'thinner spokes are better' bit? I use thicker spokes on the gear side if a cassette is very high so the wheel is almost flat on one side to get symmetrical tension, but otherwise equal on both sides and thicker for heavier loaded bikes (such as tandems). Would love to understand this bit. > You need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim Yes, this is key. You won't be able to get the spokes properly tensioned if you don't do that (or you end up eating up the hole around the spoke nipple). That's a great way to ruin a rim or to end up with busted spoke nipples. Oh, and also important: use the proper key! (not those round ones but the ones that go over and on, obviously sized exactly for the nipples you use).

jacquesm 5y ago

Hm. Ok. For me wheel quality is defined as durability and ability to withstand stress under use. My primary interest when it comes to building wheels where it really matters what you make in the application of tandems, in particular long distance touring bikes where you are taking your bike on a holiday, packed with gear and two adults. A bad wheel can quite literally ruin your whole day, trip or worse. So there are some objective qualities that you could judge wheels by. Consistency is key, and knowing where the limits of the materials used are and how far away from those you are. An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one, the undertensioned wheel will fail gracefully, the overtensioned one will desintegrate. If you are optimizing for speed of building that's another matter altogether, I was hoping for a clear and objective difference in quality of build.

jimnotgym 5y ago
>An under-tensioned wheel is safer than an overtensioned one Well...an undertensioned wheel is a recipe for broken spokes. Why not correctly tension a wheel? The correct tension is quite a lot higher than most builders go. An overtensioned wheel is not very easy to produce, at high tensions truing the wheel becomes super-critical in that tiny changes move the rim absurd amounts, and that is the point to back off.
- anthomtb 5y ago
  Is it possible for spokes to gain tension while riding? My intuition says no, which would mean erring on the side of more tension would keep you in the correct range over time. I have heard of top level downhillers using minimal spoke tension for better compliance and traction. They also have professional mechanics and piles of wheels to use for a race weekend. Meaning their wheels have to be just reliable enough to hold together for a 4 minute race run.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Not normally, unless you count the little bit of variation due to different thermal expansion coefficients of rim and spokes but that should not be enough to make a meaningful difference. But they do lose tension over time, so it doesn't hurt to periodically check. That's also a good way to spot cracks in rims, which and do happen especially on bikes that are built once and then used for years.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    Interesting, I have stood next to a World Cup winning downhiller begging his mechanic to increase tension in his wheels beyond where the mechanic was happy so his wheels would survive longer. He thought this 'compliance' stuff was bs, and he liked that I agreed with him (hence the conversation). This was a couple of years ago mind, but I would be suprised if it had really changed.
    - anthomtb 5y ago
      A few years back Mike Levy from Pinkbike rode Troy Brosnan's bike and made note of how little tension was in the spokes: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/riding-troy-brosnans-world-cup-dh-bike-crankworx-whistler-2018.html https://www.pinkbike.com/news/riding-troy-brosnans-world-cup.... Paul Aston (World Cup pack fill, former Pinkbike journalist) also made note of experimenting with extremely low tension and implied it worked pretty well: https://www.downtimepodcast.com/paul-aston-2021/ https://www.downtimepodcast.com/paul-aston-2021/ Really though, where you have the resources to experiment with something like spoke tension, you are likely to end up with a couple outliers.
anthomtb 5y ago
You are arguing the importance of appropriate spoke tension but also suggesting that measuring tension by ear is perfectly acceptable? That does not add up to me.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Millions of violinists would disagree. You can go by tone to a pretty high degree of consistency. https://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm https://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm
  - anthomtb 5y ago
    Cool article. The pitch based measurement does seem sensible enough for some people. And more accurate then squeezing spokes with your hand. Still, I trust my ability to read a tension meter more than my ability to match pitch. Props to anyone who feels otherwise - pitch pipes are much cheaper than good tension meters.
    - cassianoleal 5y ago
      What about apps that spell out the pitch for you (like guitar/instrument tuners), or even translate it directly to spoke tension? e.g. https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id518870820 https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/spoke-tension-gauge/id51887082...
wiredfool 5y ago
Undertensioned wheels will start to fail in about 1-2000k from fatigue in the j bend of the spokes. They're a lot easier to build, because spoke windup and nipple galling don't start to be an issue until you get to decent tensions. There are three failure modes that I've seen for an over-tensioned wheel: 1) The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from. 2) The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components) 3) Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention. For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad. Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim. I used to really like the Mavic Open4 rims with the double eyelets, but that's gone out of style now.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > Undertensioned wheels will start to fail in about 1-2000k from fatigue in the j bend of the spokes. Yes, I've seen a couple of those, typically mail order or equivalent bikes sold without a mechanic involved in the sales process. Guess who gets to fix them :) > They're a lot easier to build, because spoke windup and nipple galling don't start to be an issue until you get to decent tensions. Lubrication during build is the key I think. > The wheel will buckle in a potato chip shape - This is generally something that will happen at build time, and can be recovered from. Interesting, I've never seen this at build time but I've seen people that build their own wheels crash terribly because of this, so far only (fortunately) rear wheels. Just thinking about having that happen to a front wheel while on the move is enough to give me views of dentist offices. > The inner wall of the rim will pull away from the side wall. This was particularly bad with the old Mavic MA single eyelet rims, but I've seen it on at least one other rim as well, a lightweight MTB rim laced as a tandem rear. (Completely inappropriate choice of components) This I've never seen. > Spokes can be improperly tightened without lubrication in the threads, causing windup which later (when unloaded under tire pressure and rolling loads) causes the pinging sound of the wheel going out of true. This is not a structural failure, but it does cause the wheel to require attention. This is the main thing I've come across frequency wise. I suspect some manufacturers don't particularly care about what they ship as long as the customer pays and it makes it out of warranty. > For the buckling limit case, the ultimate load depends on the torsional stiffness of the rim, and a few other minor factors. Box or closed section rims are much better, U shaped rims are bad. Yes, logical too. Box or closed section rims can be ridiculously stiff. > Paradoxically, thinner spokes are better, and you need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim. Can you explain the 'thinner spokes are better' bit? I use thicker spokes on the gear side if a cassette is very high so the wheel is almost flat on one side to get symmetrical tension, but otherwise equal on both sides and thicker for heavier loaded bikes (such as tandems). Would love to understand this bit. > You need to lubricate the nipple threads and the contact with the rim Yes, this is key. You won't be able to get the spokes properly tensioned if you don't do that (or you end up eating up the hole around the spoke nipple). That's a great way to ruin a rim or to end up with busted spoke nipples. Oh, and also important: use the proper key! (not those round ones but the ones that go over and on, obviously sized exactly for the nipples you use).