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Don't kid yourself. Bitcoin does not have any place as a real currency (at least for legal purchases) - it is solely a speculative asset. People buy cryptocurre

by alexb_ 5y ago

Don't kid yourself. Bitcoin does not have any place as a real currency (at least for legal purchases) - it is solely a speculative asset. People buy cryptocurrencies in hopes it will become worth more USD, or to buy drugs.

fullshark 5y ago
So it has a proven use case, that will never go away: illegal purchases.
- gjvc 5y ago
  It has a proven use case as a result of what?
- tomjakubowski 5y ago
  What's the size of that market, and what portion of participants bother to try covering up their transactions on the blockchain between exchanging with a real currency and buying/selling the drugs (or nuclear weapons, or hitman contracts, etc.)?
  - fullshark 5y ago
    I don't know! I'm not a huge crypto fan at all, but say 5 years ago there was this belief among crypto bears that it would be a forgotten memory in 50 years, I just don't see that happening. Illegal monetary transactions are a huge use case for Crypto, and i'm not naive enough to think crime will be a distant memory in 50 years. Now does that mean you should buy bitcoin cause your savings will 10, 100, 1000x? Not necessarily, it could be replaced, and also go sideways or down but I'd be surprised at this point if there's no crypto-economy in 50 years.
olah_1 5y ago
You can pretty much live off of bitcoin tbh. Or at least you can spend it in a lot of places. - https://www.bitrefill.com/ https://www.bitrefill.com/ - https://foldapp.com/ https://foldapp.com/ - https://crypto.com/cards https://crypto.com/cards
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
  > You can pretty much live off of bitcoin tbh. Or at least you can spend it in a lot of places. > - https://www.bitrefill.com/ https://www.bitrefill.com/ Buying gift cards is the same as cashing out but worse in every way. Pre-converting to a limited-use intermediate currency and then spending that intermediate currency isn't the same as spending bitcoin. > - https://crypto.com/cards https://crypto.com/cards I notice that their "stake" requirements are listed in USD, not CRO, and that this runs through both Visa and Metropolitan Commercial Bank to do centralized back-end conversions into and out of their bespoke coin. It sounds a lot like the blockchain aspect adds literally nothing to the equation and is just there to ride the buzzword FOMO zeitgeist. > - https://foldapp.com/ https://foldapp.com/ Same as ^ but with a different centralized backend bank and a different bespoke coin that adds literally nothing to the equation.
- simonh 5y ago
  Only within certain extremely constrained limitations, but it’s an insignificant use of the system overall.
davidmurdoch 5y ago
I've paid with Bitcoin for many legal tangible things that I would have otherwise paid for with a credit card if the Bitcoin option wasn't so much cheaper (10-15% discounts usually).
- mey 5y ago
  Within the last year? Directly with Bitcoin or with a L2 network?
ravenstine 5y ago
What do you think currency is? Of course it's a currency. If people have the misguided view that Bitcoin is a bank or that they should earn a profit by trading it, that's on them. USD isn't much different other than that it's backed by military and economic might; at the end of the day it's numbers, like Bitcoin, without a decentralized blockchain.
- brightstep 5y ago
  The quality of being exchangeable for goods doesn't make it a currency. Even if it were a currency, it would be a very bad one without many of the properties required for sound monetary policy.
kevinak 5y ago
You can use it as an everyday currency in El Salvador. Here's an example from three months ago: https://youtu.be/6IAc1G8xaDs?t=62 https://youtu.be/6IAc1G8xaDs?t=62
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  There are major issues with this implementation: - goes down with AWS - uses mongodb - money disappeared - people don't understand it and don't use it - fees are subsidized - ... It's ultimately only used for 5 % of the international transfers AND more expensive currency to currency wise. ( I have a more complete write-up with links somewhere in my comments, if you want them) Edit: here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30091410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30091410
  - kevinak 5y ago
    How does this refute the argument that you can use it, for legal purchases, in El Salvador? Also this doesn’t really apply unless you use the custodial wallet. McDonalds isn’t, and you don’t have to either. If you self custody you’ll be fine.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      > How does this refute the argument that you can use it, for legal purchases, in El Salvador? That i wouldn't want to use it if i lived there. It has no benefits, only disadvantages.
    - hiq 5y ago
      The comment you're answering to is pointing out that this is unsustainable in its current implementation in El Salvador (and implicitly unlikely to last), meaning that this example does not refute that > Bitcoin does not have any place as a real currency
danuker 5y ago
Bitcoin's blockchain is not scalable, but there is Lightning, which can give Bitcoin more "currency" traits.
- alexb_ 5y ago
  That has literally nothing to do with what I'm saying. Nobody except for weird techno-idealists actually value crypto in any terms other than it's equivalency to actual money.
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    The cat is out of the bag, pandora's box is open, thank God with a capital G Bitcoin us unbannable. The separation of money and state will bring us better stability, less war, eliminate people like Chavez and Putin from the world, etc etc etc.
    - dataangel 5y ago
      How will separation of money and state eliminate people like Putin?
      - kevinak 5y ago
        Maybe not eliminate them, but they won’t be able to use the money printer as they please, effectively funding things like forever wars.
        alexb_ 5y ago
        ...do you understand how money works, you can't just "use the money printer" to fund wars what are you talking about
        jazzyjackson 5y ago
        Sorry, are you asserting that there's one correct theory for "how money works" ? Where does money come from according to you?

by alexb_ 5y ago

fullshark 5y ago

So it has a proven use case, that will never go away: illegal purchases.

gjvc 5y ago
It has a proven use case as a result of what?
tomjakubowski 5y ago
What's the size of that market, and what portion of participants bother to try covering up their transactions on the blockchain between exchanging with a real currency and buying/selling the drugs (or nuclear weapons, or hitman contracts, etc.)?
- fullshark 5y ago
  I don't know! I'm not a huge crypto fan at all, but say 5 years ago there was this belief among crypto bears that it would be a forgotten memory in 50 years, I just don't see that happening. Illegal monetary transactions are a huge use case for Crypto, and i'm not naive enough to think crime will be a distant memory in 50 years. Now does that mean you should buy bitcoin cause your savings will 10, 100, 1000x? Not necessarily, it could be replaced, and also go sideways or down but I'd be surprised at this point if there's no crypto-economy in 50 years.

olah_1 5y ago

You can pretty much live off of bitcoin tbh. Or at least you can spend it in a lot of places. - https://www.bitrefill.com/ https://www.bitrefill.com/ - https://foldapp.com/ https://foldapp.com/ - https://crypto.com/cards https://crypto.com/cards

BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
> You can pretty much live off of bitcoin tbh. Or at least you can spend it in a lot of places. > - https://www.bitrefill.com/ https://www.bitrefill.com/ Buying gift cards is the same as cashing out but worse in every way. Pre-converting to a limited-use intermediate currency and then spending that intermediate currency isn't the same as spending bitcoin. > - https://crypto.com/cards https://crypto.com/cards I notice that their "stake" requirements are listed in USD, not CRO, and that this runs through both Visa and Metropolitan Commercial Bank to do centralized back-end conversions into and out of their bespoke coin. It sounds a lot like the blockchain aspect adds literally nothing to the equation and is just there to ride the buzzword FOMO zeitgeist. > - https://foldapp.com/ https://foldapp.com/ Same as ^ but with a different centralized backend bank and a different bespoke coin that adds literally nothing to the equation.
simonh 5y ago
Only within certain extremely constrained limitations, but it’s an insignificant use of the system overall.

davidmurdoch 5y ago

I've paid with Bitcoin for many legal tangible things that I would have otherwise paid for with a credit card if the Bitcoin option wasn't so much cheaper (10-15% discounts usually).

mey 5y ago
Within the last year? Directly with Bitcoin or with a L2 network?

ravenstine 5y ago

What do you think currency is? Of course it's a currency. If people have the misguided view that Bitcoin is a bank or that they should earn a profit by trading it, that's on them. USD isn't much different other than that it's backed by military and economic might; at the end of the day it's numbers, like Bitcoin, without a decentralized blockchain.

brightstep 5y ago
The quality of being exchangeable for goods doesn't make it a currency. Even if it were a currency, it would be a very bad one without many of the properties required for sound monetary policy.

kevinak 5y ago

You can use it as an everyday currency in El Salvador. Here's an example from three months ago: https://youtu.be/6IAc1G8xaDs?t=62 https://youtu.be/6IAc1G8xaDs?t=62

NicoJuicy 5y ago
There are major issues with this implementation: - goes down with AWS - uses mongodb - money disappeared - people don't understand it and don't use it - fees are subsidized - ... It's ultimately only used for 5 % of the international transfers AND more expensive currency to currency wise. ( I have a more complete write-up with links somewhere in my comments, if you want them) Edit: here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30091410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30091410
- kevinak 5y ago
  How does this refute the argument that you can use it, for legal purchases, in El Salvador? Also this doesn’t really apply unless you use the custodial wallet. McDonalds isn’t, and you don’t have to either. If you self custody you’ll be fine.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    > How does this refute the argument that you can use it, for legal purchases, in El Salvador? That i wouldn't want to use it if i lived there. It has no benefits, only disadvantages.
  - hiq 5y ago
    The comment you're answering to is pointing out that this is unsustainable in its current implementation in El Salvador (and implicitly unlikely to last), meaning that this example does not refute that > Bitcoin does not have any place as a real currency

danuker 5y ago

Bitcoin's blockchain is not scalable, but there is Lightning, which can give Bitcoin more "currency" traits.

alexb_ 5y ago
That has literally nothing to do with what I'm saying. Nobody except for weird techno-idealists actually value crypto in any terms other than it's equivalency to actual money.
- danlugo92 5y ago
  The cat is out of the bag, pandora's box is open, thank God with a capital G Bitcoin us unbannable. The separation of money and state will bring us better stability, less war, eliminate people like Chavez and Putin from the world, etc etc etc.
  - dataangel 5y ago
    How will separation of money and state eliminate people like Putin?
    - kevinak 5y ago
      Maybe not eliminate them, but they won’t be able to use the money printer as they please, effectively funding things like forever wars.
      - alexb_ 5y ago
        ...do you understand how money works, you can't just "use the money printer" to fund wars what are you talking about
        jazzyjackson 5y ago
        Sorry, are you asserting that there's one correct theory for "how money works" ? Where does money come from according to you?