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Oh man, you wouldn't believe the flak I got for arguing that 90+ year olds wanting to see their family during COVID restrictions was actually a rational decisio

Oh man, you wouldn't believe the flak I got for arguing that 90+ year olds wanting to see their family during COVID restrictions was actually a rational decision for them. They had a much higher annual risk of dying anyway than they did of catching and dying from COVID given the prevalence rates at the time and assuming standard family gathering sizes. I'm not even sure their risk was strictly greater given the affects of isolation on humans, but I can't make that argument numerically since the needed stats aren't quite there. But omg no one wanted me to argue for elderly autonomy.

jmchuster 5y ago
Not all forms of death are necessarily equivalent. By all accounts, covid seems like a relatively long and painful one, slowly suffocating to death.
- xeromal 5y ago
  I think dying alone is much worse than dying with your family suffocating to death.
  - jmchuster 5y ago
    There are portions of the world where we don't have our older family members off living on their own.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      I definitely meant in the context of the US where we throw away our elders once we have our own families. lol
- gmadsen 5y ago
  at 90+, i really don't think its ethical to make someone suffer a miserable slow covid death against their will. The US has a weird relationship with people ending their lives on their own terms.
thaw13579 5y ago
It's only rational if you ignore the secondary effects on others. It could increase community spread and ICU usage and thus increase the risk of death for others who didn't make that choice. The other likely causes of death (heart disease, cancer, and stroke) do not spread.
- tim333 5y ago
  The people doing most community spreading weren't the 90 year olds.
  - thaw13579 5y ago
    Statistically, there are more people younger than 90 than older, so I don't dispute your statement, but I don't see your point. Is this to justify them breaking isolation? My understanding of the parent is that it is rational to break isolation because the likelihood of death from other causes is so high already. If the hypothetical 90 year old lived alone (aside from visiting family), then maybe it might adds up that way. My response is that if the person is a community dweller with other old folks and everyone adopted this individually "rational" choice, then the average risk of death from COVID would be far higher because of the increased likelihood of transmission among the most vulnerable (probably why the parent might have gotten some pushback at the suggestion). (assuming this discussion is about restrictions pre-vaccine). Alternatively, if the hypothetical 90 year old moved in with the family, things might stack things up differently.
    - tim333 5y ago
      From my experience the 85+ year olds were mostly isolating at home, the 0-50 year olds out and about in schools, shops, restaurants etc. I'm not sure you needed regulations on the 85+ at all as most are not party animals and the risk of dying for them probably outweighs potential government fines.

jmchuster 5y ago

Not all forms of death are necessarily equivalent. By all accounts, covid seems like a relatively long and painful one, slowly suffocating to death.

xeromal 5y ago
I think dying alone is much worse than dying with your family suffocating to death.
- jmchuster 5y ago
  There are portions of the world where we don't have our older family members off living on their own.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    I definitely meant in the context of the US where we throw away our elders once we have our own families. lol
gmadsen 5y ago
at 90+, i really don't think its ethical to make someone suffer a miserable slow covid death against their will. The US has a weird relationship with people ending their lives on their own terms.

thaw13579 5y ago

It's only rational if you ignore the secondary effects on others. It could increase community spread and ICU usage and thus increase the risk of death for others who didn't make that choice. The other likely causes of death (heart disease, cancer, and stroke) do not spread.

tim333 5y ago
The people doing most community spreading weren't the 90 year olds.
- thaw13579 5y ago
  Statistically, there are more people younger than 90 than older, so I don't dispute your statement, but I don't see your point. Is this to justify them breaking isolation? My understanding of the parent is that it is rational to break isolation because the likelihood of death from other causes is so high already. If the hypothetical 90 year old lived alone (aside from visiting family), then maybe it might adds up that way. My response is that if the person is a community dweller with other old folks and everyone adopted this individually "rational" choice, then the average risk of death from COVID would be far higher because of the increased likelihood of transmission among the most vulnerable (probably why the parent might have gotten some pushback at the suggestion). (assuming this discussion is about restrictions pre-vaccine). Alternatively, if the hypothetical 90 year old moved in with the family, things might stack things up differently.
  - tim333 5y ago
    From my experience the 85+ year olds were mostly isolating at home, the 0-50 year olds out and about in schools, shops, restaurants etc. I'm not sure you needed regulations on the 85+ at all as most are not party animals and the risk of dying for them probably outweighs potential government fines.