4 ms·

And I just saw the price. Holy.

mkoryak 5y ago
As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued only to have it go out of true a month later, I can understand this price. It's easy to make (or buy) a shitty wheel, but if you commute on a bike, you need to invest in well built wheels
- analog31 5y ago
  An issue with wheels is that bringing them up to correct tension takes time, even if someone or something is guiding the process. If the wheel is going out of true, then it wasn't properly tensioned. In that case, a machine isn't going to motivate a shop to do a better job. Deming said: "Quality control is a management problem." According to fairly widespread bike folklore (i.e., in the absence of real stats), machine built wheels tend to start out with insufficient tension. Correcting that one issue will result in a more stable and longer lasting wheel. I've seen this on two bikes in my family's fleet, both were new from bike shops, and of reputable brands. Our oldest bikes, with hand made wheels, have stayed put for decades.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Spokes can and do stretch differently over time due to manufacturing variance. Checking your wheel periodically by strumming the spokes can help identify spokes that have stretched unevenly compared to the rest. Typically you'll find the opposing spoke to also have lost some tension and probably one or two spokes earlier and later.
    - jimnotgym 5y ago
      Spokes coming loose over time can be caused by lack of stress relieving. This is where there is some twist in the spoke due to friction between the nipple and rim. This is where handbuilt wheels have an advantage
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, as well as the spoke end becoming embedded, stretch and the spoke nipple becoming embedded (typically: harder spoke nipples vs aluminum wheels). So make sure when you get a new bike to check this after your first couple of rides and then again after 6 weeks or so when more subtle effects start to kick in.
        jimnotgym 5y ago
        I have never had these kind of problems with dtswiss spokes and nipples and quality rims. Handbuilding is so labour intensive why would you compromise on materials like this?
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Interesting. I've had this happen even with good materials and I totally agree that compromising on materials makes no sense. Even so, it doesn't hurt to check things periodically so they don't sneak up on you. I recently re-spoked my s-pedelec because I didn't like the spoke brand and nipples used, that thing is too heavy and too fast to take any chances with.
        wiredfool 5y ago
        What (specific) type of deformation are you seeing? Elastic deformation, plastic deformation, or creep? Elastic deformation is not a time dependent property, and should be the regime in which the wheel is operating. Plastic deformation is (also not time dependent) where you have gone beyond the yield point of the material, and have permanently changed the shape, even after unloading the part. All of the plastic deformation of wheel components should happen at build time. Creep is when a constant load causes additional time dependent strain. There shouldn't be anything in a wheel that creeps, but it's possible that some plastics or epoxy/composites could creep.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        > All of the plastic deformation of wheel components should happen at build time. I suspect this is true, except that parts being what they are (always with small inconsistencies) and the spoke nipples riding inside the rim and j bends in the spokes riding inside the holes in the hub tend to 'find their spot' after being exercised for a while. I've made it a pretty hard rule to re-check after 6 weeks and invariably something has shifted. This probably indicates that my wheel building technique could be better, then again, I've never had a wheel that I built fail - so far - and over the years have done between 100 and 200, some of them for very heavily loaded bikes (tandem trekking bikes). Most recent wheel was actually this weekend, I'll be sure to give it another really good look to see if I missed something that might cause this which I can catch at an earlier stage. My typical wheels: double walled aluminum rims, quality spokes and nipples (and the latter seem to be hit-and-miss, I've had bad batches of nipples more than once in spite of re-ordering the exact same kind, but I noticed it immediately during assembly), typically Shimano hubs.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued up That sounds like you were ripped off. It isn't hard to do and it isn't hard to do right. It takes very little in terms of investment in tools (the most important thing is a stable stand so you can rotate the wheel, an old fork with a guide attached will do fine for this, and a $15 hardened spoke key).

As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued only to have it go out of true a month later, I can understand this price. It's easy to make (or buy) a shitty wheel, but if you commute on a bike, you need to invest in well built wheels

analog31 5y ago
An issue with wheels is that bringing them up to correct tension takes time, even if someone or something is guiding the process. If the wheel is going out of true, then it wasn't properly tensioned. In that case, a machine isn't going to motivate a shop to do a better job. Deming said: "Quality control is a management problem." According to fairly widespread bike folklore (i.e., in the absence of real stats), machine built wheels tend to start out with insufficient tension. Correcting that one issue will result in a more stable and longer lasting wheel. I've seen this on two bikes in my family's fleet, both were new from bike shops, and of reputable brands. Our oldest bikes, with hand made wheels, have stayed put for decades.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Spokes can and do stretch differently over time due to manufacturing variance. Checking your wheel periodically by strumming the spokes can help identify spokes that have stretched unevenly compared to the rest. Typically you'll find the opposing spoke to also have lost some tension and probably one or two spokes earlier and later.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    Spokes coming loose over time can be caused by lack of stress relieving. This is where there is some twist in the spoke due to friction between the nipple and rim. This is where handbuilt wheels have an advantage
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Yes, as well as the spoke end becoming embedded, stretch and the spoke nipple becoming embedded (typically: harder spoke nipples vs aluminum wheels). So make sure when you get a new bike to check this after your first couple of rides and then again after 6 weeks or so when more subtle effects start to kick in.
      - jimnotgym 5y ago
        I have never had these kind of problems with dtswiss spokes and nipples and quality rims. Handbuilding is so labour intensive why would you compromise on materials like this?
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Interesting. I've had this happen even with good materials and I totally agree that compromising on materials makes no sense. Even so, it doesn't hurt to check things periodically so they don't sneak up on you. I recently re-spoked my s-pedelec because I didn't like the spoke brand and nipples used, that thing is too heavy and too fast to take any chances with.
      - wiredfool 5y ago
        What (specific) type of deformation are you seeing? Elastic deformation, plastic deformation, or creep? Elastic deformation is not a time dependent property, and should be the regime in which the wheel is operating. Plastic deformation is (also not time dependent) where you have gone beyond the yield point of the material, and have permanently changed the shape, even after unloading the part. All of the plastic deformation of wheel components should happen at build time. Creep is when a constant load causes additional time dependent strain. There shouldn't be anything in a wheel that creeps, but it's possible that some plastics or epoxy/composites could creep.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        > All of the plastic deformation of wheel components should happen at build time. I suspect this is true, except that parts being what they are (always with small inconsistencies) and the spoke nipples riding inside the rim and j bends in the spokes riding inside the holes in the hub tend to 'find their spot' after being exercised for a while. I've made it a pretty hard rule to re-check after 6 weeks and invariably something has shifted. This probably indicates that my wheel building technique could be better, then again, I've never had a wheel that I built fail - so far - and over the years have done between 100 and 200, some of them for very heavily loaded bikes (tandem trekking bikes). Most recent wheel was actually this weekend, I'll be sure to give it another really good look to see if I missed something that might cause this which I can catch at an earlier stage. My typical wheels: double walled aluminum rims, quality spokes and nipples (and the latter seem to be hit-and-miss, I've had bad batches of nipples more than once in spite of re-ordering the exact same kind, but I noticed it immediately during assembly), typically Shimano hubs.
jacquesm 5y ago
> As someone who has never built a wheel but as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars getting a wheel trued up That sounds like you were ripped off. It isn't hard to do and it isn't hard to do right. It takes very little in terms of investment in tools (the most important thing is a stable stand so you can rotate the wheel, an old fork with a guide attached will do fine for this, and a $15 hardened spoke key).